What MT4 tooling for a FP1? Deckel only, any MT4, special w/ custom drawbar, or?

Hi all,

I am looking at a mid 50’s all lever FP1 with a MT4 to S20x2 collet adapter but would would like to use more than just collets.

I would be hesitant to use standard MT drill bits as it looks like it would be an ordeal to get them out without impact on the spindle bearings

For milling, I would need a drawbar of course. I know lot of other mills use use MT tapers adapted for a drawbar but expect that they wouldn’t work with the Deckel drawbar

Deckel must have made more tooling than collet holders for the FP1, are they readily available?

Thanks, -Paul

Singer has a good selection:

http://www.singer-werkzeugmaschinen.de/E-index.htm

mTeryk said:

Singer has a good selection:

Click to expand...

Thanks! His prices seem very reasonable, less than I was expecting

-paul

I see that you are fairly new, welcome to the forum.
That subject has been brought up numerous times by others and myself, a search should result in some insight if you care to look. I just don't have time to dig them up now.
I actually like the system and have found it works well on an FP-1 size machine, modified some tooling that was never available off the shelf. What more could I ask for?
If you read some of those old posts and still have questions, I'd be happy to try to help.
Dan

I made a new drawbar for my FP1 (two actually, one vertical and one horizontal) - which have the necessary collars/flanges to allow ejecting a tool by unscrewing the drawbar, rather than pounding on anything.
But rather than the now exotic MK4 external thread, my drawbars support MT4-drawbar thread 1/2-13.
You can get threaded drawbar tools from various sources, sometimes need a thread adapter (M16 down to 1/2-13 is common.)

Also, there were MT4 collets on ebay, and I bought 2 sets, but haven't seen any yet.

And something maybe not discussed in the earlier threads - holders meant for the Tormach TTS system (and various copies) fit in a collet or I suppose endmill holder. And you can buy them new in whatever quanitity you might want - in effect getting quick-change, etc.

Danny VanVoorn said:

a search should result in some insight

Click to expand...

Hi Dan, thanks for the response. I tried searching for MT4 and eventually found 2 posts. I went back and banged on the search engine a little and figured out that it didn’t want to search for a term with only 3 characters, it just wouldn’t tell me that. When I searched for “MT4 taper” I got almost 800 and found some very useful stuff in there, but do you have any tips for narrowing the search a bit?

I actually like the system and have found it works well on an FP-1 size machine

Click to expand...

Glad to hear your opinion on MT4/FP1 as I ended up buying the machine:

Deckel FP1 Milling Machine W/ Slotter, Indexer, Overarm, Vise, Vertical Head | eBay

-paul

bryan_machine said:

.... which have the necessary collars/flanges to allow ejecting a tool by unscrewing the drawbar

Click to expand...

after studying the stock system, I think that's an excellent idea. I think it would be a mistake to assume that Deckels were designed to be treated like Bridgeports

I have a line on a bunch of Deckel collets, with luck that will go through

I like the look of the Tormach TTS system. am I correct in assuming that it would work with a 3/4" MT4 collet or would it be better to use their collet with an adapter?


Thanks, -paul

I like the look of the Tormach TTS system. am I correct in assuming that it would work with a 3/4" MT4 collet or would it be better to use their collet with an adapter?


Thanks, -paul

Click to expand...

Just looked into TTS for the first time. The cool features seem to be dual contact and Z height repeatability, both of which you would lose if using an MK4 collet. Making an appropriate adapter, however, might be difficult as dual contact would require very precise grinding.

If Z height repeatability isn't important, however, it would seem that using an MK4 collet with TTS would be the simplest way to speed tool changes.

Teryk

mTeryk said:

... The cool features seem to be dual contact and Z height repeatability, both of which you would lose if using an MK4 collet.

Click to expand...

Repeatability isn't important to me, but rigidity is. Taking a closer look at the dual contact, I can see how if done right so that the TTS shoulder makes good contact with the spindle, a TTS/MT4 collet setup could be more rigid than standard MT4, and better than than the Tormach collet with an MT4 to MT3 sleeve

Thanks, -paul

Hi Dan, thanks for the response. My first post to you seems to be stuck in limbo, my apologies if it finally shows up and it looks like I am repeating myself

Danny VanVoorn said:

... a search should result in some insight ...

Click to expand...

I tried searching for MT4 and eventually found 2 posts. I went back and banged on the search engine a little and figured out that it didn’t want to search for a term with only 3 characters, it just wouldn’t tell me that. When I searched for “MT4 taper” I got almost 800 and found some very useful stuff in there, but do you have any tips for narrowing the search a bit?

I actually like the system and have found it works well on an FP-1 size machine,

Click to expand...

Glad to hear your opinion on MT4/FP1 as I ended up buying the machine

Thanks, -Paul

1. I misspoke in my first post - I bought 2 sets of MT4 collets, and have not seen any for sale *since*.
2. A TTS holder in an MT4 collet will work just fine changing nothing, but won't *quite* seat on the spindle nose (which gives repeatability and hopefully more rigidity)
3. If you get *2* MK4 collets that take 3/4" (check that 3/4" but sounds right) you could grind one down (like I did with MT4) to allow TTS to seat against spindle nose.
4. The collets I have are just a touch shallow for the TTS pilot, so I have to sand/grind off the pilot (the angled part) - if you are not using an automatic tool changer with your fp1 this will not matter.

The REAL points here are:
A. The taper matches Morse Taper #4 - so MT4 tooling, adapters, etc. can be made to work.
B. With a little work you can get TTS holders to fit and in work in a collet (or endmill holder, or whatever - but collet consumes lease Z height) - and then have a source of endmill holders, ER collets, and so forth - you can easily "tool up" the machine without searching Ebay and the web for somewhat peculiar stuff.
(And now we know why fp1s that take iso40 taper tooling and can be adapted to cat40 are so desireable...)