maho mc600 and mc5hs
so, ive been looking for a restoration candidate on the cheap local to me here in canada. ive searched the net for the typical mh600's and fp4, and tos machines. found an fp4nc for $5900, a huge 50 taper non cnc tos fgs40 for under $4000.
today though, i found 2 machines id never heard of, and which seem to have many redeeming qualities.
1st up is the mc600. its a horizontal only maho thats got a massive toolchanger carousel, a fairly fast 4000rpm spindle for an 1982 machine, and a rotary table with a pallet (though no pallet changer). its claimed to be in good working order, but looks like it was hit by a bomb! its very cheap though. it has a philips 432 control.
(paragraph deleted... MINE!)
a browse of the web yield virtually zero info on either of these machines. i should be able to see the mc5hs in person soon if i can find the time. the other one is too far away.
so, does anyone know anything about these machines? are they a good candidate to refurb? they way im looking at it is i could remove all the philips control parts and ebay them for almost the price of the machine, and retrofit a more modern control. what id like to end up with is a machine thats reasonably accurate with a tool changer and moderately fast.
Last edited by ihavenofish; 04-16-2012 at 09:13 AM.
There is/was a Maho at ..... MAHO CNC Vertical Machining Center | eBay ..... that I was looking at. Listed at 22K. Put in a stink bid and they came back down around 50%. Horizontal and vertical spindle, 4 axis. SOLID machine
Came out of some sort of school so I was concerned about damage and since from Vancouver Island it was too far to travel to inspect. Low hours though. They are NOT experienced with machines it might be to your advantage do a bit of dealing in person.
haha, yeah, sorry, i deleted a bit of it and it probably doesnt make alot of sense anymore :P
im going to see one of the machines soon and unless the guy on the phone was lying about its state of condition, im buying it. once ive made that decision ill update here.
BUT, if anyone knows about this style of maho, please post. id like to know what im in for. this machine is far far more complex than the typical mh types. i assume because of its age, its a bit worn, maybe not dead square anymore, and has some ball screw backlash. its from a tool and die company, and seems well taken care of.
also, is there a good resource on the learning philips 432 control? originally the plan was to gut it, but if its working 100%, id just keep using it. the spec sheet of this 30 year old machine reads better than most new haas's so if it aint broke i aint fixin i it :P
thats a nice machine. seems to claim a tool changer, but i dont see it in the pics. montreal is a bit far from me though to see it in person though, and the price it much more expensive than the one im looking at.
Originally Posted by Downside
seems to be some really nice stuff the last few months though out there. last year i couldnt find anything interesting at all.
you gonna post anything useful one of these days?
Originally Posted by Milacron
so, im am going to see the mc5hs tomorrow morning. talked directly to the owner. seems to be that it works, but its always been a "refurb" project for them they never got around to doing. i now understand why its priced the way it is.
hopefully its adequate for my goal here and i can grab it.
I guess not....to go into details as to why you are not going to retrofit this machine, but even if by some miracle you did so, why you would recoup only a small fraction of any retrofit cost by selling the original electronics would take way to much typing. Plus it's already been hashed over with regards to Deckel retrofits (which would be very similar to Maho) many times in the past.
Originally Posted by ihavenofish
Retrofitting a Maho or Deckel CNC is not impossible..it has been done...but far as I know, only by a few CNC professionals you could count on one hand. Every end user that has ever attempted this ends up flaking out in the end, or the end result is worse than the original equipment.
Try it and you will find out....I don't have time to re-educate folks on this for the umpteenth time...you are way late to the party on this. Perhaps search CNC retrofit keywords in the Deckel forum for more info.
Originally Posted by ihavenofish
Dangit...will someone else jump in here so I don't have to keep wasting my time with this guy ? Look, this isn't a Bridgeport...even the MH600 is waaaaaay more complicated than that. Apparently you are even ignorant of the 3 motors that drive the spindle gear changer, the automatic oiler, the hydraulic tool changer, the specific Indramat axis drive system, and on and on.... but I'm done...just DO IT...if it's so easy, and come back to boast about it.
Originally Posted by ihavenofish
so, i went to see the mc5hs. i like it alot. its a pretty awesome machine even by todays standards. i think ill be taking it.
i took some photos. ill post them later.
things ive learned so far about it... its in very good shape, not really beat up or dirty. its 1985 according to one of the plates on the back (not the main machine plate though, couldnt find that). its got box ways on the ram, which i hadnt seen on other small mahos before the 90's. the tool changer is neat. it seems to be a robot that hides behind a door, then comes out on top of the ram, grabs the tool, spins around and inserts the new one, then retracts back to the carousel. the carousel is massive, seems to hold 42 or 48 tools.
they think they have the owners manuals in a box too, which is nice. basically, it seems i can reassemble the covers, reattach the control wiring, and turn it on and go. i have come around to milacrons way of thinking. this machine is REALLY involved for a retrofit and while i think it could be done, it would probably take a year of solid work. id rather just use it
they have no tools for it. should this maho take the same iso 40 tools and pull studs as other mahos from the mid 80's?
this is going to be quite fun to run.
432-10 is definitely better than the 432-9 but the 603 SW level is, I believe, still too early to really do any drip feed of the control. You'd have to search that subject.
As far as retrofit I think you and Don are talking past each other-- His idea of a proper retrofit is full original functionality and utility if not more so, whereas your comments indicate you would be satisfied with much less.
Not sure about pull studs and holder configuration for that vintage. Later Maho tool changers require a notch in the flange of the toolholder which is generally non-standard on anything you can readily buy.
yes, my idea of a retrofit is a machine that moves, haha. but after seeing this thing, that would be a total shame. its really really slick.
on the control, ive done a little searching and seemed to get the impression v603 does drip feed. but its been hard for me to really decipher alot of the info, cause of course i dont have the thing running in front of me to poke at. the owner seemd to believe it could drip feed as well.
that said, is upgrading to 703 possible, or is it "as is" for software.
i also want rigid tapping, but couldnt figure out if it supported that. the spindle does seem to be a servo, as opposed to an ac induction motor.
on the tooling, thanks, i remember now reading about the index pin. some people file it down on the machine, others modifiy regular new tooling i guess. i can clearly see the pin in the photos i took of the machine. the bigger concern to me is a matching pull stud i think, since that cant really be "fudged".
Pull studs should be readily available.
SW upgrade is theoretically possible (I'd have to read up on the different levels again). It seems the go to guy for this (Maho Doctor) has retired. Not sure if would be possible through DMG. Either way not cheap.
Spindle is oriented for tool change and on mine (600E2) has an encoder for position.
cool, thanks. i was going to phone my dmg rep anyway on it. i want to see if maybe they know someone experience in using and or fixing these. the machine was used by some shop at one point in the local area so someone must have a clue.
Index of /maho/images
so, ive learned some things staring at the pics some more, and looking online.
1st up is it should have a big coolant tank. huge, with 3 pumps, filters and a conveyor belt thing to remove debris. this wasnt in the room, so im not 100% sure if its included. if not, thats going to be a reasonable expense to set up a new pump.
2nd was something i cant believe i missed. inside the control panel is the controls for a renishaw probing system. my guess is the probe is long gone, but it would be nice if it was still around or easy to get a new one. i cant find much info on this model though. yay for old stuff!
there also is a little box at the back that seems to be a spindle coolant chiller. i guess it would have that since the spindle is 8000rpm. it also appears the spindle has hydraulics for changing gears, so my belt drive assumption is likely wrong.
anyhow, fun fun!