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Makino vs AgieCharmilles vs Mitsubishi Wire EDM Machines

SMcClean

Plastic
Joined
Jul 8, 2010
Location
Oakmont, Pa
Hello,
My company is going to purchase a new Wire EDM. We are looking at the Makino DUO43, AgieCharmilles Cut20, and the Mitsubishi BA8. Can anyone give me their feedback on any of these machines.

Thanks,
Stephen
 
Stephen,

It would help to explain the type of work you are doing. Each machine type has strengths and weaknesses. Are you looking for part height, accuracy, speed, finish, reliability, fine wire etc. Maybe list in priority what your requirements are!

:typing:
Larry McNamee
EDM Support
visit: EDMCorner.com
 
EDM Machine Needs

Larry,
We make extrusion tooling. We cut all stainless steel on heights varying from .75" to 6". We will only be using .012" wire. Most of it will be 2 axis cuts. I would list these in the following order:
Threading
Speed
Reliability
Finish
Accuracy
etc.

We currently have Charmilles 230 and 330's.
 
Everyone I've talked to that owns/operates a Fanuc Robocut is in love w/ everything about the auto threading; specifically the speed, reliability & consistency. I've never seen a Makino WEDM in person but would really like to, esp. a U86. In talking to others in the industry, seems most everyone salivates over a Makino once they see it cut (albeit at a price).
 
Everyone I've talked to that owns/operates a Fanuc Robocut is in love w/ everything about the auto threading; specifically the speed, reliability & consistency. I've never seen a Makino WEDM in person but would really like to, esp. a U86. In talking to others in the industry, seems most everyone salivates over a Makino once they see it cut (albeit at a price).
I'm not a wire guy but I would have to question why you left of Fanuc machines also. Could be cost, I have no idea but my employer runs about 12 Fanucs and have had good luck with them. We started with Charmilles and have never went back, but the Fanucs fitted our need well.

As with all Fanuc machines they are built in reverse. The machine is made to preform to what the controler askes of them and is capable of doing. Most machines are designed then paired with a controler that will make them preform as close to their maxium ability as possible. I'd say Fanuc is worth a look if nothing else. Just my 2 cents.
 
Larry,
We make extrusion tooling. We cut all stainless steel on heights varying from .75" to 6". We will only be using .012" wire. Most of it will be 2 axis cuts. I would list these in the following order:
Threading
Speed
Reliability
Finish
Accuracy
etc.

We currently have Charmilles 230 and 330's.

You've got Charmilles machines now.

Are you unhappy with them?

Do they not do what you need?

Is there a compelling reason to switch manufacturers?

If you stick with Charmilles your new machines:

... will be supported by the same company as your old machines.

... will use the same CNC code as your old machines.

... can be run by the same operators/machinists as your old machines without having to learn a new control and codes.

... if you have a PM contract with Charmilles (which you should IMO) they will be serviced by the same technician.

Go with what you know.
 
Check out the Makino.

They have an impressive set of features that make running and especially maintaining a wire machine easier than any other I've seen.
 
ALL,
We are considering manufacturers other than Charmilles because the new machines are completely different than our current ones. The NC code along with the controls have changed. Also, I am not very satisfied with Charmilles support. I often have issues getting a hold of someone for help. That is why we are looking at comparable machines also. I have been operating Charmilles for 10 years now. I also use to run a Makino SP43, which is comparable to the DUO43 I am looking at now. I was very happy with the support and the machine. I have no experience with Mitsubishi, although I have heard a lot of good feed back. I will look at Fanuc after reading these replies.

I am just trying to get others feed back. Every machine maker says their machine is the best.

Stephen
 
I'm just gonna give a few impressions on what I've think from my experience..

Never ran a Makino. Have always heard good things about them though. Built like tanks, but very expensive.

We used to have a Mitsubishi FA30. It's the worst machine we ever owned. The threader was terrible, the control was counter-intuitive, and it couldn't cut parts over 12" (This thing had a 20" Z axis) with nothing less than an .006" bow in the middle of the cut, no matter what I did with the technology. When I questioned why this happened, I was told the power supply wasn't big enough for that machine, and we should have bought the higher model Mitsubishi with the bigger power supply. Take that as you will. Again, this is just my experience, your mileage may vary.

We have 2 older Charmilles machines, a 290 and a 510. They're rock solid, and don't break down much. Excellent for 4 axis cutting, and do well on tall cuts. Can't say much about the threaders as ours don't have them. Controls are very nice. As you said, support can definitely be a little spotty sometimes, and parts are very expensive. Luckily ours don't break too often.

We have 3 Fanucs, an Alpha 0B, an Alpha 0C, and an Alpha 1iD. I love these machines. The control is awesome, very intuitive. Extremely accurate with good finishes. Support has always been good to us, and parts aren't particularly expensive. The threader, especially on the new 1iD, is incredible. From a wire break to a rethread and back to burning it's something like 10 seconds, and can usually rethread in the kerf, depending on cutting conditions. I would say you should definitely look into a Fanuc, especially if you're very concerned about threader performance. These machines have won me over and I would happily replace almost any machine in our shop with one.
 
We have 3 Fanucs, an Alpha 0B, an Alpha 0C, and an Alpha 1iD. I love these machines. The control is awesome, very intuitive. Extremely accurate with good finishes. Support has always been good to us, and parts aren't particularly expensive.
In photos, the OB and OC appear identical...except the OC has a swiveling control hanging out on an arm. Is there any other difference really ?

Seems a rather optomistic price on this one...

http://cgi.ebay.com/1996-Fanuc-Robocut-A-OC-Wire-EDM-Machine-/200507718334?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0
 
That price is ridiculous. We payed about 25k for a better looking 0C.

The 0b and 0c are very similar, as far as I can tell, the c is an incremental upgrade over the b. The c has a better designed control panel, updated/better cutting technology, etc. Also, the whole takeup roller system in the back is pretty different. Not sure if there is any power supply difference, but they cut at similar speeds.
 
ALL,
We are considering manufacturers other than Charmilles because the new machines are completely different than our current ones. The NC code along with the controls have changed.

Ya ya... no more Fanuc controls pal.
That's cause the new machines can do more than ever.
Remotely access to not only see if the machine is running, but you can tweak settings, bump offsets, edit macros to change order of operation, and even change the next friggin' line in the program that's running!!
Fanuc controls are great cause they are simple.
Simple controls can't do complicated things.
Get ready brother... here it comes...keep up with the curve or get left behind.
Buy yourself a new control.
I don't care what machine it's on.
Use every square inch of it's capabilities.
Be the leader...
Take your customers on a tour that involves you having to turn the shop lights on so he can see the robot loading up another pallet.
Accommodate his engineer's screw up at no additional cost while you sit on the beach in Florida.

Of course, now you'll say that you use the WEDM to make carbide stick tools supporting your three Brown & Sharps.
Buy the Fanuc...
 
We used to have a Mitsubishi FA30. It's the worst machine we ever owned. The threader was terrible, the control was counter-intuitive.

Ya ya, those Mits controls can be tough...
Gotta think like a Jap.
Remember when they didn't offer rotation in degrees?
The only way you could rotate was to "Exchange Axis".
Lame...
If you ask them about it though, they'll tell you that the way they lay out a control is the most efficient way possible.
They give you 5 or 6 different screens in which you can do the same thing.
I think they like to keep their options open.

and it couldn't cut parts over 12" (This thing had a 20" Z axis) with nothing less than an .006" bow in the middle of the cut, no matter what I did with the technology. When I questioned why this happened, I was told the power supply wasn't big enough for that machine, and we should have bought the higher model Mitsubishi with the bigger power supply.

Say what???
Did the machine let you build technology for a 20" cut?
Did they sell it as being able to "cut 20" " or "clear 20" "???
20" of Z travel is wicked awesome...
I love machines that can cut super thick stuff.
More time for me to be sipping tequila while the machine makes me $90 an hour.
 
Ya think??
1996...
Weak Z hieght...
Ran aluminum since the day it was uncrated...
I wouldn't pay a stitch over $16,000.
LOL...the seller is a brokerage with numerous salespeople...so they probably have no clue what any machine tool is actually worth, and will just plop whatever comes their way up on eBay for whatever the owner wants it to bring. Sometimes they have some pretty good deals, but the owner is out to lunch on this one...consuming mind altering substances apparently.
 
I've had a CHMER for about 5 months and have nothing bad to say about them! (so far) Over the years, I have run Charmilles, Fanuc, Brother, Mits, and Japax. Charmilles used to be pretty reliable when it came to service support but in the last three or four years they've gone in the tank! I have yet to call on the service dept. for Chmer
To be fair....all manufacturers seem to go through rough spots with their service departments. I just dont understand why or how they can let the service end go down so far and expect return customers........ Enough rambling, back to work!
 
Say what???
Did the machine let you build technology for a 20" cut?
Did they sell it as being able to "cut 20" " or "clear 20" "???
20" of Z travel is wicked awesome...
I love machines that can cut super thick stuff.
More time for me to be sipping tequila while the machine makes me $90 an hour.

It sure did have the "technology" to cut a 20" piece. It sure as hell didn't do it though. One of the first parts we cut on that machine was an 18" tall mold insert, essentially just cutting a big radius across it's face. I think we skimmed it about 20 times trying to straighten it out, to no avail. Currently we have a Chmer with a 20" Z. While not my favorite machine, it gets the job done.

Cooper Bob said:
I've had a CHMER for about 5 months and have nothing bad to say about them! (so far) Over the years, I have run Charmilles, Fanuc, Brother, Mits, and Japax. Charmilles used to be pretty reliable when it came to service support but in the last three or four years they've gone in the tank! I have yet to call on the service dept. for Chmer
To be fair....all manufacturers seem to go through rough spots with their service departments. I just dont understand why or how they can let the service end go down so far and expect return customers........ Enough rambling, back to work!

We have 6 Chmer wires, and 3 Chmer hole poppers, one of them a CNC. For bang for the buck, they really are decent machines. The unsubmerged ones seem to hold up a hell of a lot better though. We were actually one of, if not the first, shops to get a Chmer in this country. I've taken many a phone call referred from EDM Network from potential customers looking to buy one, and I like to think I got off the phone with them feeling good about what I had to say.

Though I really do like our Fanucs a lot better, the Chmers are great if you don't want to drop that much cash.
 
Please can you give me a rough idea how much a basic Chmer CNC drill cost?

Thanks.

I can next week, I'm on vacation this week. I don't do the purchasing of machines, I'm just a lowly employee. It's definitely a specialized application. We have 2 regular production jobs we run in it every couple months. But I think when it really pays for itself is when we have to burn about 60 start holes in a 3" stack of 1/16 titanium plates, and you set it up at night and it's done by the next morning. That kind of thing just makes it worth it.
 
CHMER CNC Drill

Visit our web site www.edmnetwork.com to see the wide variety of CHMER EDM Drills that we offer.

If you E-mail me at larry@edmnetwork I would be glad to discuss your requirements and give you a quote on our basic model the CHMER CMH32C.

We will be at IMTS showing the newest model with Electrode changer, Guide changer, AB axis and the ability to run G code so you can run the machine like a mill.:drool5: I am only talking about this because it is shows that EDM Drills now do more than "Hole Popping". Drop in to our booth and say "High".

:typing:
Larry McNamee
[email protected]
 








 
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