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Many questions on Roboform 100

rpgdeity

Plastic
Joined
Jan 2, 2008
Location
Silverton, OR
I just acquired a Charmilles Roboform 100 EDM machine. I'm a CNC milling/turning shop with no EDM experience. I would like to learn this machine and ultimately make it profitable for my shop. What am I getting into? The manuals are being mailed to me, so I haven't read through them yet. Bare with me as some of these questions may seem simple to others.

So it has a "C" axis. Whats its purpose? Simply orienting the electrodes? Do you use it to spin the electrode while sinking down?

It has a tool changer. Do you have roughing and finishing electrodes when working on a part? Do you eventually find that you have common size/shape electrodes that are used often?

It looks like the table has X and Y travel. Is this for positioning, or can you EDM sideways? Can you circularly interpolate a hole?

Is there a book or a resource that explains the functions of sinker EDM machines? This machine came with a pile of stuff that looks foreign to me.

I'm sure once I understand the functions of the machine I'll start thinking about all the things I can do with it. Does anyone have any pictures of parts done on a machine like this?

Thank you for any input/help.

-Brandon
 
Hi Brandon:
Welcome to the world of Sinker EDM.
It is a sometimes intensely frustrating but very cool metalworking technique that will enable many things unobtainable any other way.
You have made a good machine choice too; Charmilles is a very good brand indeed; I'm not familiar with your specific machine control, but Charmilles controls in general are very powerful and capable and make many of the intrinsic challenges of sinker EDM easier once you figure out how to turn it on and run it.

Having said all the positive stuff; here's what you're up against getting a machine like this productive:
First of all, the machine is only a smallish part of your new problems; you've now got to make electrodes.
If you go with the most common electrode material choice, they'll be graphite, and that means a helluva mess in your shop unless you're willing to do all the things needed to keep the housekeeping under control.
Graphite dust isn't just messy; it's abrasive as hell, so it kills machine tools, and it's conductive, so it kills computers.
It also needs better cutters than run-of-the-mill coated carbide, so you're looking at diamond coatings and their expense.
I chose to use tellurium copper and copper tungsten instead of graphite for these reasons, but I pay a significant penalty in reduced burning performance.

If you want to get into any production, you'll need electrode holders and you'd better be sitting down when you check out the prices for any of the top brands.
Then there's the cost of dielectric oil for the tank (a thousand bucks or so for a 55 gallon drum).
So this is not a cheap undertaking.

Moving on to the work you'll try to attract.
My machine hums into action mostly when I'm building injection molds.
It will run sometimes for as much as a month, then might stand idle for a half a year or more.
I get occasional work for it on other stuff; I'm cutting a set of tiny stamping punches right now, and I've cut some other weird stuff for surgical instruments and the like, but it's pretty sporadic work without the molds.
Sinker work in my experience, is almost never specifically sought after by an engineer or purchasing manager; I get my sinker work because I specialize in the kind of work others won't even bid on, and it's a part of my unusual arsenal of machines that I deploy when I think it's the best or only choice.
So advertising sinker capability hasn't been very effective for me in bringing work onto the machine table, but having a reputation for pulling off screwball jobs has kept the machine busy enough to justify the floorspace it occupies.
Another point about sinker work: it is amazingly easy to lose your ass bigtime on the sinker.
It is one of the least predictable machining technologies, and the details that matter can be really un-obvious.
Of these, the principal one is flushing; one fluid-starved spot in a corner somewhere, and the whole process grinds to a halt and sometimes goes backward, blasting an unrepairable hole in your beautiful part.
Last weeks half hour job can easily turn into this weeks ten hour hair tearer.
One of the most frequent killers is burning out broken taps; a tiny loose bit like a chip or a broken tap fragment, and she no want to cut, no matter how you curse.
Price your jobs accordingly and warn your customers.
I tell them I'll try.
It will either take an hour, a day or it won't be possible, and they still have to pay.
I let them put an upper cost limit on the job after which I'll abandon it, but they have to pre-pay and I'll refund them the balance if it turns out to be easy and fast.
If they won't play by those rules, then I won't put their job on the machine.
I've had my ass handed to me too many times on this kind of work; so making them prepay is a great way to keep cheap shysters away!

The other big one is underestimating the finishing time.
Roughing can go at a good clip at times followed by hours and hours to take out the last tenths.
Your Charmilles will be way better than my Hansvedt, because yours likely has an adaptive control that is given a goal for finish and finds its own way to get there most efficiently, which is a HUGE help compared to mine which must be set up manually.

To answer your specific questions: the C axis can be used to orient the electrodes and also be used to spin round electrodes.
Spinning an electrode improves its ability to make a round hole and also aids in flushing spark gap debris out of the cutting zone.
It's a useful feature; so be happy the machine came with it.

Electrodes wear, sometimes quite substantially, so the burn will often require several trodes to complete.
Corner wear is the big problem.
The standard practice used to be to make an undersized roughing electrode, followed by a set of finishing trodes.
The development of orbiting capability changed that approach, so now electrodes are usually all made the same amount undersize then orbited out to the proper size to make the desired part.
On a CNC sinker, you can burn in any direction, and along vectors generated by combining axis movements, all with good precision and without any actual contact between cutter and workpiece, so frail trodes and parts are possible in ways you cannot do by any other means.

As far as books are concerned, I recommend a book by Bud Guitrau; he's one of the EDM gurus and his book is well written, describing both the theory (simplistically but very usefully) and the practical nuts and bolts.

On a last note, you can have a look at my Implant Mechanix website; there are lots of examples of sinker EDM machined parts scattered throughout the site.
Cheers

Marcus
Implant Mechanix – Design & Innovation - home
Vancouver Wire EDM -- Wire EDM Machining
 
When I started running Charmilles Sinker EDM machines, my boss had me do nothing but set tool offsets for about three months. After the first day I realized his more sinister intention. I was to read the manuals for the machine during any spare time I could find, such as the programming, maintenance, and specialty manuals. I did not understand 95% of what I was reading, yet realized later that just an overview would allow him to teach me the finer aspects and capabilities of CNC EDM. It is great that you have the manuals coming. Charmilles publishes excellent manuals. Get familiar with them, then start burning simple features. Check your work, or even better, have a coworker inspect it. It worked for me, and I enjoy working in this industry. If you have any particular questions about Sinker EDM applications down the road, please feel free to send me a message and I'll reply as soon as I can.
 
Wow! Thank you guys very much for all of that info. Makes me feel a bit better. I was in unknown territory when I first started my machine shop, and I sure felt the same feeling when I got this machine. Feels really good to hear from some guys who have experience.

I guess you could say this machine got dropped in my lap. In case anyone was wondering why I'd go buy a machine I knew not the first thing about, the deal was way to sweet to pass up. If it came to it I could part this thing out and make money. Still, I've got my work cut out for me if I want to get this machine up and running.

I'd like to get a bit of a feel for the sinker process. Below is a simple drawing of a part in an assembly that I produce and market myself. The drawing shows the way I've always wanted to be able to make this part. Diamond shape x 0.550" deep. Right now I drill out the corners and CNC mill the inside. Material is 304 stainless. I'm thinking I'll drill the thru hole, machine what I can of the pocket, then EDM out the corners. Tolerance isn't tight, we are talking +/-0.003". Its the shape and corners that are important. Perfectly sharp corners would be better, does that add more difficulty than having even a small radius as shown?



Whats a ballpark cycle time to EDM this diamond feature? A couple hours? A day? I have nothing to compare to for EDM cycle time. With all the variables and mention of unknown issues, can a guy even guess an estimate on time? If its a lot of work to figure out time required its no problem, its just the only thing right now I have as an example of a part I'd like to EDM.

Thank you guys again.
 
Newer Mits or Charm would rip that out in 20mins or so. Orbitting/finishing would be the majority of it, if you are going down to an approximate 6rmax finish... Your machine would prob be another 15 mins or so.

Its definitly the finishing/oribitting that would take longer on an older machine. I would prob just cut that Electrode to -.008" or -.010" undersize and let er rip.

Production work is gravy once you utilize multiple work origins and that toolchanger.
 
Marcus, I'm curious about your use of tellurium copper compared to HDHC copper (C101).

Here in the UK I think it was sold as easycut copper: I remember years ago we started to have serious electrode wear issues and the service engineers were running around town on call outs for machine faults causing excessive electrode wear, long story short the local engineering merchant had switched supplies to TeCu without mentioning it to anyone after being told by a rep that all the local toolmakers would appreciate the change! After the change back to HDHC the wear issues went.
I've not used TeCu since so I'm curious if there's still a difference in performance using more modern equipment than what we had back then? Cheers John (sorry for going slightly off topic)
 
Hi 71bsab50:
I've had another fellow comment on this very issue in one of the past threads, so I tried to source some C101 in the kinds of plate stock I need.
No way, no how could I get anything I could use from any of the local heroes, and that means bringing it in from the US and brokerage fees and maybe Homeland Security sticking their dirty noses in and just all sorts of hassle.
I also just recently ran a job for a customer that makes cyclotron parts; it was a set of targets for some kind of experiment, and it was cut in C110 because I couldn't get C101.
Well the C110 was miserable to work with compared to Telco.
Telco is not bad...not nearly as wear resistant as graphite, but for the burns I do, it works well enough.
Maybe one day I'll get off my lazy duff and get some C101 to try it out; maybe I'll get the proper housekeeping setup to work with graphite, but for now, I'm just not that motivated.
As to whether more modern generators can handle Telco better than my old Hansvedt; I'd guess probably they can, and I suspect it's because their adaptive control uses low wear generator settings to remove almost all the material then just kisses the surface with the finishing settings to clean up.
I have to guess at all those settings because the Hansvedt control is so primitive; I sometimes leave too much stock for the finish settings and wipe out some of the trode trying to clean out the last thou, especially if I need to hit a dimension and get a perfect finish too.
Cheers

Marcus
Implant Mechanix – Design & Innovation - home
Vancouver Wire EDM -- Wire EDM Machining
 
Hi Marcus,
It's a shame you can't get hold of HDHC as I'm certain you would see improvements on the sparker you have. Having made thousands of electrodes over the years, HDHC copper is always my first choice of electrode material, I'd never consider it a difficult material to machine though, despite its reputation as being so. If you ever get to work with it the only real requirement is the cutter edges have to be very sharp, uncoated carbide is my first choice and I also do all roughing with a rippa cutter as it will shift material very quickly.
I know exactly what you mean about getting the stock right between roughing and finishing, fortunately I now have an Agie CNC edm which does make getting the spark undersizes easier these days.

Cheers
John
 
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