OT - Anyone ever bought from Praxis tooling?

Like the title says it, I'm looking into some wire EDM tooling from this company, specifically this:

Wire EDM Rails

I know I could make them myself but I don't have the time or even a grinder on this shop.

So any recommendations? Any other small companies selling this kind of tooling?

There is a guy on Ebay selling the same kind of fixture but I had a really bad result on dealing with him and I just need something now! Looks like at least these 2 guys and another one I called don't have anything in stock and everything gets made to order.

Had the other guy ship an incomplete set of clamps, only shipped a partial were the items were out the shelf bolts and what looks like unfinished clamps, as in not ground/cleaned clamps and at least one of the sizes don't look to have been heat treated at all as per the item description on the ad.

As received

On the ad

I know different Heat treat temps would make them look different but I just don't see any signs of the large ones being treated.

I guess it doesn't surprise me when even the clamp set that came with the machine had hex posts come in drill but not tapped.

So anyways, getting off my rant mode, Does anyone have any recommendations besides the obvious?

Thanks in advance!

MMtz

MMtz,

I have not bought from them, but I've seen their stuff. I'm Russian/German, and so I don't have any problem spending money, but it damn well better be worth what someone's asking. So knowing that - I've made every single piece of my tooling. Implmex and I have conversed at length about the issue, many times just bouncing ideas and plans around. I've made short rails, long rails, nesting fixtures, pocketing fixtures, angle plates, Vee blocks, Vee plates, and even all my clamps and stand-offs. I never bothered hardening my clamps. It just doesn't take that much to clamp something in a WEDM.

Hi Zahnrad.

Thanks for your response. Well I'm sure not German but I don't mind spending the money when it's well worth it either. I just found it hard to swallow after checking the price tag on the System 3R tooling. I just added a nice Mitsubishi wire and I knew right from the beginning that the price on tooling was going to be high, however I have a product line for it and I rather get something that can get us by for now while I make dedicated fixturing for it.

I've also always made my own clamps and vises for other wire EDMs at other shops I've worked at but this time I just don't have the time to do it.

What I was complaining about on the clamps was the fact that just as you said, I don't mind paying someone else to do tasks I can't do myself right now but if I'm paying for it I would like them to be at least as good as advertised.

Not trying to be rude but I've got a little frustrated about the way this has evolved.

Thanks again.

MMtz.

My Father just bought the same rails for his mitshubishi wire and they haven't been taken out of the tank since. High quality stuff, nicely made and shipped. They let you set workpieces up way faster than clamping it to the edge every time.

MMtz, I agree completely. Like I wrote, I've seen their stuff from colleagues that have bought it. It was decently made. There is another "off brand" place that is here, in Wisconsin, named < dahmit I forgot now > EDM that also makes fixturing. Their stuff was moderately less expensive ( note I did not say "cheaper" ) and well made, too. You might check their web site and ring them up as well. <edit - I have to remember who it was now>

I have never really understood why companies try and jam it up people's nether regions when it comes to pricing on WEDM tooling. Is it moderately more expensive to make? Absolutely. But by now, these things are being cranked out in mass production and nowhere near being justified for some of the pricing that exists. It's just not that hard to cut, heat treat and grind. Likely I am just a cheap bastard and missing other relevant points but I just don't get it.

Good luck.

Hi Mmtz:
Like Zahnrad Kopf, I tend to build my own tooling.

Here's what I've found:
I can make tooling as good as, or better than I can buy but I can't make it substantially cheaper than I can buy it for, even at 3R prices.
The reason is that I have to play fussy, anal toolmaker to get the precision that a company like 3R can get through the quality of their production setup; so I blow a lot of time getting it right enough to be useful for the kind of work I do on my wire EDM.

I therefore try to focus on the things I want that I cannot buy at any price.
A case in point, I needed a Vee block fixture to mount on my wire's rotary axis that can be adjusted to get the workpiece coaxial to the rotary axis to a tenth or better.
No where could I find such a beast, so I built one and I'm happy with it but it cost me a bloody fortune in time to get it truly accurate.

On the subject of what you can get in the bargain bin: there are a few vendors that spring to mind.
Sunspot is one, Gromax is another.
EDM Network markets a house brand as well.

The problem with the best of these, is they are only a bit cheaper than top of the line (Hermann Schmidt, Newbould, 3R, Hirschmann, Erowa etc etc.)
But their quality is hit and miss; just fine if you'e working to liberal tolerances but maybe not quite up to scratch if you're trying to hit tenths.
You just can't tell until you interrogate it, whether it's flat, square, parallel, etc.
When I pull out a 3R, I KNOW it's as good as they claim it is; when I pull out a Gromax I don't.
It might be, but then again it might not.
So until I inspect it and maybe lap it in or re-grind it I can't use it with confidence, and that costs money too.

Now for lots of stuff nobody cares, and your clamps are a good example of that; it's more off-pissing than job destroying that they're rougher than a badger's ass; it doesn't really affect the function of them, but if your Vee block or vise is not square it's a big problem.

With regard to your specific complaint about the stuff you bought; yeah I'd be kind of choked too, if the tapped holes weren't even tapped.
Looks to me like a small manufacturer with a production schedule that's out of control.
It speaks to a hacker shop mentality; the kind where things are hit with big hammers to make them co-operate; not the sort of place to get your precision kit.

If I were in your position, I'd buy all my uncritical gear from a reputable import house; I like EDM Network just because I have a history with them and they've been good to me, so I have some of their house brand stuff; mainly just clamps.
If I was a proper businessman, I'd present myself at 3R's door with a cheque and a smile for the critical stuff.

Having said that, all my high end or oddball stuff is home made, even vises and Vee blocks that I could easily buy.
However, I LIKE making tooling, so even though I know better, I sneak in sometimes, and indulge myself.
I cheerfully piss on the fact that it's not really cost effective; I'm getting what I WANT, and I'm having FUN playing with my TOYS!!

(BTW, I'm German too for whatever that's worth).

Cheers

Marcus
Implant Mechanix – Design & Innovation - home
Vancouver Wire EDM -- Wire EDM Machining

Hi Marcus, Sorry for the late response but as you can imagine my priority was on cutting parts at the moment .

Thanks for the advice, I appreciate it and I will probably follow up your example within my limits.

I ended up ordering the set from Praxis and I've got to say it's a well put set, and a good example of taking pride on what you make. I'll post a couple of pictures once I get a chance to pull them out of the machine. I'm now a happy camper and at least the machine is running smoothly and looks like we'll be fine for a while.

On regards to the other set, I'll probably end up cancelling it. This is my 1st bad experience buying anything on Ebay so now I have to figure out how to cancel the order. You get what you pay for and on this case I thought giving a small guy's shop a chance wouldn't be bad but I guess I've been proved wrong.

Would you or Zahnrad mind giving me some leads on a fixture design?

Thanks in advance.

MMtz.

MMtz,

Marcus is _MUCH_ better at explaining than I am, but speaking for myself - I don't really have any guidelines for how or what I make, save to try and answer what's pissing me off at the moment.

I needed to hold some round blanks of varying sizes, so I whipped up a Vee block plate that clamps to the table. I literally just drilled a few holes for mounting provisions besides clamps, hung it over the edge "this much" and took a rough and 3 skims to make sure it was "on". It has ended up _LIVING_ on the table, out of the way, but always ready for use.

I frequently machine instruments and parts from plate, and I'm prone to machining them to the point that they're ready to come out of the plate, but still held well enough to overcome vibration, chatter, and warpage. I've come to like swinging the WEDM hammer to liberate them when ready, and so rails are a natural attraction for me. So, I grabbed some D2 bar stock, drilled a metric butt load of holes, threaded most of them, hardened, tempered, and ground them to make two sets of rails. One large to span the table, and one short to hang out in space.

I'm far too "thrifty" to spend $25 for each toe clamp, so I whipped out 12 or so in an hour one day.

I wanted a Vee block that didn't obstruct access to the part, but that would interface with other tooling I've made. So I made another Vee block that utilized some of the plethora of Neomydium magnets I have laying about, inserted into slots proximate to the Vee's surfaces.

I also do a bit of work in which I stack plates of material. Normally, I weld the edges of the stack to keep everything locked in place and have it act as if it were solid. Even so, I learned long ago that it makes my life easier to have some manner of nest for these things to sit in, repeatably. So I made a pocketing nest for such welded stacks. It has the added benefit of allowing me to move the fixture to the mill to machine start holes and other features and then bring it back to the wire machine for wiring, while still maintaining position and alignment.

Necessity really is the mother of invention, and more oft than not - she's a wisened old bitch. But some times, with a careful hand and a thoughtful mind, she's also pure gold.

Hi Zhanrad.

Those are some really nice ideas, I'll keep them in mind so I can make me a set. Now I just have to find some time, do they sale some in fleabay? Or would my nearest walmart have some?

Thanks again.

MMtz.

These guys are telling you right! We got talked into buying a lot of Erowa stuff for our Sodick. The rail, we use all the time! But most of the other holders and vises we never use. We generally make our own fixtures, to suit our application. Good luck, with it!

Zahnrad Kopf said:

MMtz,

Marcus is _MUCH_ better at explaining than I am, but speaking for myself - I don't really have any guidelines for how or what I make, save to try and answer what's pissing me off at the moment.

I needed to hold some round blanks of varying sizes, so I whipped up a Vee block plate that clamps to the table. I literally just drilled a few holes for mounting provisions besides clamps, hung it over the edge "this much" and took a rough and 3 skims to make sure it was "on". It has ended up _LIVING_ on the table, out of the way, but always ready for use.

I frequently machine instruments and parts from plate, and I'm prone to machining them to the point that they're ready to come out of the plate, but still held well enough to overcome vibration, chatter, and warpage. I've come to like swinging the WEDM hammer to liberate them when ready, and so rails are a natural attraction for me. So, I grabbed some D2 bar stock, drilled a metric butt load of holes, threaded most of them, hardened, tempered, and ground them to make two sets of rails. One large to span the table, and one short to hang out in space.

I'm far too "thrifty" to spend $25 for each toe clamp, so I whipped out 12 or so in an hour one day.

I wanted a Vee block that didn't obstruct access to the part, but that would interface with other tooling I've made. So I made another Vee block that utilized some of the plethora of Neomydium magnets I have laying about, inserted into slots proximate to the Vee's surfaces.

I also do a bit of work in which I stack plates of material. Normally, I weld the edges of the stack to keep everything locked in place and have it act as if it were solid. Even so, I learned long ago that it makes my life easier to have some manner of nest for these things to sit in, repeatably. So I made a pocketing nest for such welded stacks. It has the added benefit of allowing me to move the fixture to the mill to machine start holes and other features and then bring it back to the wire machine for wiring, while still maintaining position and alignment.

Necessity really is the mother of invention, and more oft than not - she's a wisened old bitch. But some times, with a careful hand and a thoughtful mind, she's also pure gold.

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I don't have a wire machine right now but owned a nice Sodick at one time. I wanted to make my own tooling, just never got around to doing it. What do you find works best for materials ? When I did make something quick and simple I used 440C and the rust was unstoppable even when kept clean and dry after use it just seemed to grow on the tooling. This stopped me from making my own stuff. Our purchased rails, vises and V-blocks stayed nice and clean but anything we made in house looked like crap after being used a few times.

Ron

overflow machine said:

I don't have a wire machine right now but owned a nice Sodick at one time. I wanted to make my own tooling, just never got around to doing it. What do you find works best for materials ? When I did make something quick and simple I used 440C and the rust was unstoppable even when kept clean and dry after use it just seemed to grow on the tooling. This stopped me from making my own stuff. Our purchased rails, vises and V-blocks stayed nice and clean but anything we made in house looked like crap after being used a few times.
Ron

Click to expand...

Hi Ron -

Did you passivate after machining? That's the first suspicion that comes to mind. Other than that, I've found that one needs to stay on top of things and cleaning one's tooling is right up there with machine care as well. In fact, there's a small cottage industry that's appeared simply to address the care and appearance of EDM tooling these days. I've even toyed with the idea of Galvanizing or Nickle Plating tooling in effort to reduce this phenomenon and allow me to create tooling from less expensive materials.