Preferences for new high accuracy sinker

Anybody have strong feelings about the different builders of smallish high accuracy sinkers?

I went to a team meeting this morning with the list of issues I've had with our 2001 Mitsubishi EA12E and one of the questions from the plant manager was "well how much is a new one?". That machine is the upper limit of the size we need and maybe a little beyond at that.

I'm interested in pretty much anything good or bad. Control, accuracy,service,parts, all of it.

No budget yet but I do know they aren't commodity machines at this level.

Thanks in advance

Hi William:
I have a soft spot in my heart for two machines.
The first is a Makino. (I can't quote you a model number but they have a high precision offering or used to anyway...get one of those!!)
I can't say why from any personal experience; but from all I've heard they're extremely well engineered and well built machines that are deadly accurate and very pleasant to use because they're so well thought out.
The few people I know who've run them have never had anything bad to say about them.
I have seen them mentioned in Modern Machine Shop, Micro Machining and other publications wherever projects with extraordinary requirements for precision are being showcased.

Brian Pfluger who posts to this forum from time to time is a Makino guy; he's the one you should ask about their offerings and which might suit you best.


The other machine I really like is a linear motor Sodick.
A mold shop just around the corner from us has one and it is one sweet machine especially for poor flushing situations where the ram speed is a major factor in pulse flushing effectively and you can't or don't want to riddle your trodes with flushing holes.
I'm envious as Hell over that machine, but I can't justify the coin so I play with my little Hansvedt and dream!!.

I believe the Makino is a better choice than the Sodick though, if outrageous precision is your primary driver for the purchase. (The Makino is built like a tank compared to the Sodick and it's probably twice the price)

Having said all that; pretty much any high end sinker is going to be awfully accurate as far as the motion control platform is concerned.
They're all well made , they all have good generators, they can all do tenths work.
What distinguishes the accurately processed job from the "not quite" accurately processed job is overwhelmingly the fussiness of your process consistency and the attention to detail that implies.

One of the best resources around to sort out the processing problems, are the applications guys for the machine tool builders; if you're serious about a new machine to solve a gnarly processing problem, you can ask them to provide a turn key solution for you and the good ones will rise to the challenge.
Be aware it won't be cheap, but it will be effective if you define your problem unambiguously and actually spend what it takes to follow their advice...ALL of it, not just the machine purchase.

So I'd pound on Brian's door...I'm sure he'd be delighted to help find a solution for you.

Cheers

Marcus
Implant Mechanix • Design & Innovation > HOME
www.vancouverwireedm.com

On a totally unrelated note; how are you making out with the evil subgate problem you posted about recently?
Is this current inquiry related to that thread?
MC

I agree wholeheartedly with Marcus' evaluation. The linear motor Sodicks look pretty slick. I've run the older ballscrew style Sodick sinkers and liked their interface and similarity with their wire machines. Here's a youtube linky EDM Linear Motor - Ball Screw Drive Comparison - YouTube

I never hear anyone complain about Makinos either once they get past the price. That being said, I would not overlook AgieCharmilles either.

Marcus and J Thank you.
Marcus this is related to the sub-gate issue. The Mits we have is not really set up for the small burns we are attempting. The control considers any burn under .01 sq. in. a small burn and creates power setting based on the .01 sq. in. area. The other toolmakers that went to Mits for training when the machine was new say they were told not to use less than .03 sq. in. So my gate burn with only .0001 sq. in. doesn't always fare so well and I get very inconsistent results. Also as Marcus alluded to flushing on deep sub-gate burns just plain sucks.

We will go back to Mitsubishi application support to see if there is anything that I am missing as far as how to create the power settings I need. But ultimately I think we need a new machine for this project. There are 250 tools in our inventory that use this design and we renew, repair or replace probably 10 - 15 a year.

And for Marcus especially thank you again for your thoughts on all of this. We are serving a lot of the same market although the toolroom here is a captive operation.

Hi again William:
Since your principal problem is the extraordinarily small burn surface area, there are two recommendations I can make that are probably worth exploring more.
The first is to look into a Sarix.
These are highly specialized small hole EDM machines designed to make apertures in things like spinnerettes and fuel injector nozzles and have the spark generators to run smoothly on ridiculously low power settings.

The other is a specialist small hole EDM offering from Makino, that will wire cut your trode and sinker EDM your part feature; all in the same machine with the same setup.
Again, Brian Pfluger is the guy to talk to, but from what little I know, these are premier machines for making exactly the sort of geometry you need for this project, and you may well be able to justify the investment because you've got an ongoing need and lots of volume.
They'd be way overkill if all you were doing was general burning, but for this application they might well take your pain away completely and turn this into an exacting but routine job.
Also, you've still got the Mits for general burning; so don't toss it away if you buy the new one for your gates!!
Cheers

Marcus
Implant Mechanix • Design & Innovation > HOME
www.vancouverwireedm.com

Thanks again Marcus. I will take look at the Sarix. I've seen the name but don't know anything about them.

I had asked a similar question a little while back and Marcus had provided a similarly informative answer. Brian from Makino will likely jump in at some point, but maybe not as Marcus is doing a good job earning credits towards his own machine. Just a few hundred thousand more posts to go...

If small and super accurate are what you need, Makino does really seem to have the best machines available based on discussions here and a with a couple other mold makers. Check out the EDAC-1 or EDFH-1 (I think it's the same as the EDAC-1 but with a W axis for hole electrode guides) to see the extreme end of the small/precise that they offer. Something like a EDAC-2 with a C axis seems like it would be much more versatile for general high precision mold work. I still need to review my applications with them and get pricing, I've actually been a little chicken to find out how much.

I asked for a quote on a Sarix machine and was actually told that my parts were too big. I am looking at doing things like .040" diameter cavity, .25" deep, with .016" through hole going another .050" deeper. Sales person at auroramicromachine.com told me they would have flushing issues and too much stick out. I didn't dig further, to see if it could be made to work. With the through hole in my part roughed in a few thousands small, I would think hooking up a flushing line right there would be the way to go. If you are at .001 sqin then maybe it would work for those applications. Support doesn't seem like it would be anything like what Makino would offer.

Thanks Newton. That is good to know about the Sarix. We are going to need support. The application support from Makino for our V22 Graphite Mill has been pretty good. We don't use the extractor much since we are 99% Tungsten-Copper for electrodes but it is nice to have for the odd large electrode for some of our packaging molds.

William,

I am the ever present Brian Pfluger from Makino!

From what you have described, it sounds like you have a very challenging application that requires some very fine generator settings. Makino does offer a few models that might address your needs, and these have been properly identified by a few other Practical Machinist users (thanks you for the Thumbs-up guys!). Are your needs more about machining with small electrodes, or do you also have the need for sub-micron level accuracies?

From a machine accuracy and surface finish standpoint, the Makino EDAC-1 machine will achieve the highest level of capability. This product is typically used in ultra-high precision and micro-machining applications, and might be overkill for your specific application, and the machine strokes are a relatively small 8.6” x 7.1” x 8.6” X/Y/Z travels.

The Makino EDAF2 might be better suited for your needs, as this is a larger more flexible machine platform that is also designed for high accuracy applications, and has strokes of 13.8” x 9.8” x 9.8” X/Y/Z. The EDAF-Series incorporates many of the same design concepts from the EDAC-1 model, and includes many features that thermally stabilize the machine for sustained long-term precision and repeatability. The EDAF-Series also has an option called the Ultra-fine Machining Circuit that I believe you might want to consider. This option allows machining with settings below 0.1amp, which I believe will be ideal for your small electrode application.

The EDAC-1 and EDAF2 machines are also available with a Fine Hole EDM Drilling option that provides additional capability on the machine for both standard 4-Axis Sinker EDM work and EDM Hole Drilling. Makino refers to this as “Fine Hole” machining because the level of precision and hole drilling size capability are much greater than traditional EDM Hole Drills, but at the sacrifice of machining speed. Makino can also equip the machine with a Wire Dress Unit that allows the machine to make its own small shaped electrodes, but I don’t know how applicable this would be for your parts or operation.

I will send you a PM with contact information if you wish to discuss your application in greater detail.


- Brian

Hi Brian
I'm happy to hear what you have to say about this. A large burn area for our molds is .15 sq. in. and we are looking to hold +/- .0001 most of the time. These are MIM molds where the material will flash through a .0003 gap. So accuracy and surface finish are very important. Burn time less so, an extra couple of hours don't hurt if we get the part we need the first time.
We are dressing the gate electrodes to .012 on the machine now and that is working well for us.
Thanks again and look forward to your PM