Recommendations for buying an EDM wire CNC for someone w/ no experience in EDM"s

Good Morning,
Our company is engaged in the extrusion of plastic profiles and we are interested in buying a EDM wire CNC for the production of our extrusion dice, which are small in size and width, between 2 to 6 inches thick, made of stainless steel material and also aluminum.
As our workload is not enough, we want to buy a used machine that is in good condition with not many hours of use, but is connected and working, to see it work. It is important that it is not too old so parts would be available. It doesn´t need to be fast but easy to operate.
I would be grateful if you would advise me on which machine would be suitable for this purpose and at a reasonable cost.

Hi Luis:
Much has been written on Practical Machinist about this subject; here is a link to get you started in your search:
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/edm-machining/edm-machine-335207/

Something you must be aware of that is specific to your needs for making extrusion dies; you need a machine that can cut large tapers, and not all wire EDM machines are capable of that.
30 degree tapers are not uncommon for extrusion dies; and even on the best machines they are not easy to wire cut accurately, smoothly and quickly.
The reason is that the wire is positioned on an angle by shifting the upper and lower heads relative to one another, so the flushing (which points straight up and down except on a few vintage Agie machines) doesn't penetrate the developing wire cut kerf very well and the result is slow cutting and lots of wire breaks.
The taper makes it very difficult to re-thread the wire, (especially since you need to run soft wire which doesn't thread well) so there is a lot to learn about how to do it successfully and you MUST have the right machine to do it easily and well.
Fine finishes are hard to obtain, accurate angles are hard to obtain, accurate dimensions are hard to obtain, you need to sometimes do extensive planning to be able to remove the slugs properly...NONE of it is as easy as walking around a parallel sided profile, and as the angle increases beyond 5 degrees, the problems go up exponentially...so be warned that you are jumping into the deep end of the wire EDM pond with extrusion dies.

If you have no experience, expect to be frustrated a lot until you learn what you need to in order to do it successfully on the machine you buy.

Cheers

Marcus
Implant Mechanix • Design & Innovation > HOME
www.vancouverwireedm.com

Luis,

Welcome to the world of EDM! Marcus has made some very good points that might impact your success level entering into Wire EDM. In order to help guide you in your quest better, are you able to provide a bit more information on your needs?

- What is the typical work piece X/Y size?

- What level of Surface Finish are you expecting to achieve?

- What type of CAM Programming software are you currently using?

- What is your targeted budget for a machine?

- What Training and Support will you require (more of a concern since you are looking to purchase used)?



- Brian

You really might want to look at new before you consider used. Mitsubishis have been a good machine for us and are priced competitively.

Make sure you have a good cam program. Optisolution is a good one that works well and has good support.

Hi Marcus,

Thanks a lot for all of your imput, it's definitely helpful. And will take into consideration that frustration will be part of the process.
I've been doing the dies manually in aluminum for the last 30 years and just a few dies which needed to be very precise I sent to be cut.
But I want to replace the old dies which are in aluminum into more precise stainless steel dies, and I don't have the time to do them all over again manually.
What I am planning to do for the new dies when I get an EDM is to do the die of two sections: stainless steel for the front (lip) and aluminum for the back part (compensation fluids part). I was thinking of cutting both parts with the EDM with no degree angle of taper and then on the aluminum part of the die I would manually make the taper. The angle that I usually make for the dies is of about a 20 degree taper. Do you think that doing the die in this two sections is a good idea and that it would minimize a little the complexity of using the EDM machine?

I don´t work with rigid PVC only with flexible PVC which is easier to work with.

If you ever know of someone who has an EDM which is operating and wanting to sell it, please let me know.

Thanks a lot Marcus!

Brian Pfluger said:

Luis,

Welcome to the world of EDM! Marcus has made some very good points that might impact your success level entering into Wire EDM. In order to help guide you in your quest better, are you able to provide a bit more information on your needs?

- What is the typical work piece X/Y size?

- What level of Surface Finish are you expecting to achieve?

- What type of CAM Programming software are you currently using?

- What is your targeted budget for a machine?

- What Training and Support will you require (more of a concern since you are looking to purchase used)?



- Brian

Click to expand...

Hi Brian,

Thanks for your response.

The typical dies that I use are about 1-2 inches in diameter maximum. We have a few rectangular dies of about 1/2 inch height and 4-8 inches. The thickness are around 2-4 inches.

I understand that the surface finish on EDM's is not perfect but would like to have a pretty fine finish. I won't be having a big demand on the EDM so I would prefer a slower machine with a finer finish than a faster machine with a not so perfect finish.

We were thinking that we could use AutoCad but will look at the Optisolution that someone just recommended in the forum. Which one do you use?

The budget for the machine is around more or less $10,000 depending on how old or new they are and how many hours of work they have had. I don't want to spend much more than that because we won't be using it that much, at the beginning more while I replace my old dies, but after that it won't be used much.

I am planning on hiring a technician here in Costa Rica to train us. Why is the question? What do you suggest?

If you happen to know about a used EDM which is operating and plugged on sale please let me know.

Thanks a lot Brian!

Luis

G-Auto said:

You really might want to look at new before you consider used. Mitsubishis have been a good machine for us and are priced competitively.

Make sure you have a good cam program. Optisolution is a good one that works well and has good support.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the recommendation of the Mitsubishi. How long have you been working with them? How easy is it to find parts for old machines?
Buying a new EDM is out of my budget specially for the low workload it will have.

I will look at the Optisolution program.

Cheers,
Luis

I specialize in wire EDM so I look at things differently. I've seen wire EDM's that require a cabinet full of replacement/wear parts. I keep carbide energizers on hand and that's about it aside from spools of wire. I would strongly recommend a submersible where the part is submersed in water. I use Makino wires. Not the cheapest wires on the market. Makino has a "head protect" system where if a head comes into contact with a part, clamp, or slug, the machines will stop. I have dialers that call my cell when there is a problem so the machine doesn't sit for hours not running. Another thing I would recommend is a tooling system. I have 3R systems. Again not cheap but you will save tons on setups.

Hitechceo said:

I specialize in wire EDM so I look at things differently. I've seen wire EDM's that require a cabinet full of replacement/wear parts. I keep carbide energizers on hand and that's about it aside from spools of wire. I would strongly recommend a submersible where the part is submersed in water. I use Makino wires. Not the cheapest wires on the market. Makino has a "head protect" system where if a head comes into contact with a part, clamp, or slug, the machines will stop. I have dialers that call my cell when there is a problem so the machine doesn't sit for hours not running. Another thing I would recommend is a tooling system. I have 3R systems. Again not cheap but you will save tons on setups.

Click to expand...

Thanks Hitecheo
I have heard very good recommendations of the brand Makino EDM wire Machines, and also I have heard that they are very expensive.
In my case it is not going to be used in a store selling cutting services, we will use it in our company for use of the company building extrusion dies for flexible PVC plastic, which I need is something moderate that is in good condition and that is easy to find spare parts .
Thanks again for your recommendation.
If in case you know of a machine that is running at the moment with a moderate price, I would be grateful if you would inform me.
regards

You are talking about spending $10K, but have you considered what the tooling
would cost you. You can easily spend $10K for good tooling.

Also consider that learning to operate a wire EDM is not like learning
a mill or lathe. The maintenance is much more intensive with wire EDM
than with other machines in the shop, and your success will directly
depend on how good your maintenance program is.

Also consider the recurring costs like wire guides. Wire guides can
cost from hundreds to thousands of dollars - it's not like buying a
new end mill or drill.

There are many issues to consider before you jump into wire EDM.

I bought a wire EDM for $10K, and spent two years getting it to the
point where it runs really well.

Good Luck,

Paul Hoffman

Hi again Luis:
Are you mostly making round section dies for cladding electrical cable or a similar application?
If you are, you are far better off investing in good CNC turning capability than investing in wire EDM capability, because for those kinds of dies, turning and polishing will get you a better die more quickly and more cheaply and a CNC lathe properly tooled will probably be far less of a headache to keep running in Costa Rica.
Your chances of getting a working machine for the budget you propose is also far more likely, and your sources of support are much broader if you buy something that lots of others have too and can supply you with repair parts and advice.

If, on the other hand, your part cross sections are complex and not round, and if they need to be smooth and uniform then a wire EDM is the obvious choice.
However I'm not very confident you will be able to get a good machine that will make you happy for $10,000.00 and many others here agree with me.

Since you talk about the dies you've made in the past as having been "hand made", my guess is these are simple shapes.
If that is so, milling them with a CNC mill is also an option, and with a bit of ingenuity and creativity, you can do an awful lot with a simple 3 axis VMC, decent milling software, and a small cutter grinder like a Deckel SO.

It is a less modern way, you have to be ingenious, but you don't have to keep a stable full of finicky machines in perfect condition and from what little I know of Costa Rica, I understand it's a challenge to do so there because support is not nearly so available as it is in the continental US and everything costs a lot more when it has to be brought in.

So in your particular situation, I suspect you would be taking a much bigger chance on buying an old machine that will break down sooner or later: simply because the first time you must fix it may kill the whole value of owning the machine and turn it into a money pit that will break your heart while it breaks your wallet.

Regarding your actual question about making dies in sections and putting them together; it's very difficult to give you a good answer without drawings models or at least pictures of what you're planning to make.
If you look at the wire as a glorified super accurate electronic bandsaw, you should be able to determine whether such an approach will help you; just remember the wire doesn't care if the job is hardened or not, and it will walk around a tall and complicated profile as easily as a short and simple one.
Tapers of greater than 5 degrees are harder, but so long as the machine can physically do it, a 25 deg degree taper is no harder to program than a 1 degree taper, but it is still much harder to cut successfully even when the machine is designed to do so.

Also if it quits on you, the complexity of the job will have no bearing whatsoever on whether you can nurse the machine through to the end of the job...when wire EDM machines quit...they're usually DEAD until they're fixed, and pretty much everything must be in decent order for them to be able to do anything at all.

So consider all of the consequences of deciding whether wire EDM is the correct process for you; it isn't an easy decision, and your local circumstances may have an important bearing on which decision to make.

Cheers

Marcus
Implant Mechanix • Design & Innovation > HOME
www.vancouverwireedm.com

Lius,

Using Wire EDM to produce Extrusion dies you want a machine with large U / V travels to accommodate large 4 axis dies. Agie/ Charmilles have machines capable of 30 deg tapers at full Z height but haven't heard many good things about Charmilles since being bought by GF. Our Sodicks are great for producing our Extrusion dies. Our AQ750 can handle a 45 deg tap at full Z height. Our newest machine has " taper flex " software that cuts extremely accurate 4 axis cuts. Our Sodicks give amazing finishes, very accurate and easy to use.

Hello Marcus
Thank you for your help and interest.
I was reading in the block that he recommended to me and it was very important to hear different opinions points of view that I have to take into account.
I was in Mexico and until today I can take the pictures that you asked for, I attached the website so that you can visualize the products we make, and also attached pictures of some types of extrusion dies that we make so that you can visualize better.
Bienvenido a Plastilang | Extrusion de Perfiles Plasticos
I understand that it is a difficult decision to buy an EDM under these conditions.
In the plant we have a manual lathe and a manual milling machine that help us a bit in the making of extrusion dies.
I make the dies initially by cutting the figure in its entirety and traversing the whole section manually with a scroll saw, the back for the final balance of the plastic material flows, we do it by helping with the lathe and milling machine, and manually with A Mototul Dremel we make the angles of inclination.
At this moment after 30 years we need to re-make almost all the dies that we have to be made of aluminum, we also believe that an EDM would help us to develop new products.
I personally am in charge of the maintenance part of the plastic extrusion machines and the vehicles of the plant, what concerns me is the power to get the spare parts, and the main board of the EDM that you buy, in the case of It is broken.
We already have the technician in Costa Rica who can train us to schedule the cutting process in an EDM.
I know that it is quite difficult to get an EDM machine with the little budget we have, what I am trying to get is a machine that is connected and working well, even if it is an old machine, it is rolling well, so I plan to move to where this localized, to see personally how it works, the hours of use with which it counts, and its general state.
The amount of use that we are going to give is relatively little, and we need the smallest machine on the market and it does not need to be very modern, it would be interesting that it can do some angles up to 20 or 25 degrees of inclination.
Again if you know someone who has running an EDM with those characteristics I appreciate if you can do me the favor of communicating to my email [email protected]
Cheers
Luis Roberto

Hi Luis:
OK, these are DEFINITELY wire EDM dies.
I do know of a machine that is for sale: or was when I bought all of owner's old stock of EDM wire, 3 months ago.

It is an older Sodick machine owned by a local plastic molder.
I believe it's an A500 from about 1995 or so.
They bought it used and it had lots of problems.

A Sodick technician I know came up to Canada on my recommendation and serviced it back in 2010 or so.
It has seen almost no use since then (the toolroom sends all their wire EDM work out to me and the guy who was supposed to run it has retired).
I don't know its current condition.

They paid very little for it; somewhere around your budget.
They'd LOVE to get it out of their toolroom and talked of scrapping it. (if they haven't already done so)

Be aware it's in CANADA on the west coast, so it'd be a major undertaking to get it to Costa Rica!!

The company is Columbia Plastics Ltd.
The toolroom manager's name is Steve Howarth.
Here's his email: *************[email protected]********** (strip out the asterisks to use the email)
Their phone number is: 604 530-9990.

You may try contacting him and see what the status is on that machine if you're interested.
Tell him Marcus the laser welder from Clarus Microtech sent you...he'll know immediately who I am (I do all their laser welding too).

Cheers

Marcus
Implant Mechanix • Design & Innovation > HOME
www.vancouverwireedm.com

implmex said:

Hi Luis:
OK, these are DEFINITELY wire EDM dies.
I do know of a machine that is for sale: or was when I bought all of owner's old stock of EDM wire, 3 months ago.

It is an older Sodick machine owned by a local plastic molder.
I believe it's an A500 from about 1995 or so.
They bought it used and it had lots of problems.

A Sodick technician I know came up to Canada on my recommendation and serviced it back in 2010 or so.
It has seen almost no use since then (the toolroom sends all their wire EDM work out to me and the guy who was supposed to run it has retired).
I don't know its current condition.

They paid very little for it; somewhere around your budget.
They'd LOVE to get it out of their toolroom and talked of scrapping it. (if they haven't already done so)

Be aware it's in CANADA on the west coast, so it'd be a major undertaking to get it to Costa Rica!!

The company is Columbia Plastics Ltd.
The toolroom manager's name is Steve Howarth.
Here's his email: *************[email protected]********** (strip out the asterisks to use the email)
Their phone number is: 604 530-9990.

You may try contacting him and see what the status is on that machine if you're interested.
Tell him Marcus the laser welder from Clarus Microtech sent you...he'll know immediately who I am (I do all their laser welding too).

Cheers

Marcus
Implant Mechanix • Design & Innovation > HOME
www.vancouverwireedm.com

Click to expand...

Thanks Marcus again for your help, I already wrote to Steve to see that he responds.
cheers