200 ton H frame press design?

Garwood · Jan 26, 2013

Have the opportunity to buy the foundation components for a 200 ton press to include a 6" bore cylinder, 5HP 15K PSI hydraulic power supply and 4 lengths of 1 1/4"X6" mild steel flatbar. I need a press that's happy at 50 tons, but bigger is better right? If I had 200 tons I would redesign some parts to take advantage of that capacity.

Questions I have-

The 6" bore cylinder is 11/16 wall thickness chromed ID. Is this enough safety factor for 15K PSI? Is it feasible to operate that size cylinder on 15K PSI? The cylinder is represented as built for this purpose, I've just never seen a 15K PSI hydraulic system before, not to mention a cylinder this size.

The valving is electric, on the power unit. 15K PSI must require some special plumbing to connect though. Is this a small or a big problem?

I'd like to make the work table adjustable height. Two 2" 4140 pins be adequate here? Or should I go beyond just slipping round pins through at the 200 ton point? I was planning to use a couple pieces of 1 1/4"X10" A36 plate for the table frame and 30" between the uprights.

abarnsley · Jan 26, 2013

Man that is a lot of pressure...

Just go to a larger cylinder, and get pressures down to normal.... 3 to 4 k pressures..

Valving, piping, connections, will be a lot easier... And cheaper...

A 10 in bore at 3500 psi will give you a ~130 ton...

Looks like the pros use 10k pumps and only 2hp.... for a 200 ton

And at 10k the oil compresses 4%

And while a big press is neat.. They can kill or maim in a split second... You should really have shielding for most work...

adama · Jan 26, 2013

You sure its 15Kpsi not some other unit, i have never heard of hydrulics being ran this high for just pressure duties. Your in the low water jet range pressure wise there. Hoses and pipe work is going to be bloody expensive! Seal life could also be a issue and again costly to replace.

Ries · Jan 26, 2013

Enerpac presses routinely run at 10k psi- here is a page of their presses in this range, including a 200 ton model, with rough dimensions.
It works well enough for their insurance company to allow them to sell it, leading me to believe its overengineered enough to copy.

http://www.enerpac.com/sites/default/files/xlp_vlp_326e_gb.pdf

for instance, on the 200 ton press, they use a 75mm (3") pin. four holes, two pins.

Cole2534 · Jan 26, 2013

15ksi on that cylinder gets me a hoop stress of about 33,000psi, or within 10% of the yield strength if it were rolled from A-36. I doubt this is the case, but I would verify the cylinder's material.

I work with an engineer that used to design high pressure pumping units, in the 50-60ksi range, and there are some interesting challenges at that pressure. He has a piece of 1" ss tube on his desk that you may be able to slide a pencil in as well as some pretty intricate tube fittings.

Heavey Metal · Jan 26, 2013

At 100t you routenly have extrusion prolems with your tooling.

At 150 many more things get ruined.

Both are extremly dangerous.

!5,000 psi is what they are fracking with now and it is getting common to see large pieces of plumbing that have failed.

I would stay below 10,000 hoses are available and so are pumps.

Learning to deal with a press greater than 50t is a dangerous process.

WizardOfBoz · Jan 26, 2013

It sounds like 15K is so close to a pressure that will burst the cylinder that you don't want to use that combo.

More to the point: this is lethal service. A mistake could kill you, a coworker, or (if your family is around), a family member. Are you willing to stake someone's life on advice you get here? Sorry to be all finger-wagging, but an application with this level of potential danger should be reviewed by someone competent in the field. Your cylinder doesn't rise to the volume threshold requiring a PE stamp I think, but you should get a competent hand (with a PE stamp, so much the better), experienced in this specific field, to review final design.

I mean, the great advice above is based on a lot of experience, and is great for creating a design, pricing parts, and figuring out construction. But before you commit to buying 10 20 ton Enerpacs (or whatever!), please, please, please have this reviewed. Both intrinsic functional design, and guarding and shielding.

I mean, I am a registered PE (ME), and I sure as hell would seek someone with more experience than I if I was looking at 15Kpsi.

That said, that much pressure is way cool. And a 200 ton press would be the bomb. I think it would be interesting as hell to work on. Good luck.

oldbikerdude37 · Jan 26, 2013

We have 300 ton press made in 1929. The cylinder is 12" and comes up from the bottom the top is fixed. We use it to push on solid rubber forklift tires and other ugly jobs.

As far as shielding, the press sits beside a WS #3 turret lathe, so I duck behind it and plug and unplug it when it creeps over 150 ton on spooky jobs, I wont stand by it and run the switch. Iv busted some big stubborn shit that came out and flew across the shop.

As others have said 3,500 - 5,000 psi is plenty with a bigger ram and cost effective.

Garwood · Jan 26, 2013

I agree with you guys on the safety issues on all points. For the sake of playing it safe, if I decide to purchase this stuff, I will drop the pressure to 10K PSI to stay on the road more traveled. That's still 140 tons.

Reis, 3" pins seem like they would be taking much of the cross section away from the uprights. Not to mention being a real pain to deal with- I wouldn't look forward to lining up 18" long 3" pins every time I had to change the table height.

HCF · Jan 26, 2013

Be Carefull

All of my hydraulic equipment ( Enerpac Simplex Otc SPX ) is 10,000 psi no more . Alot off the time most pressing and pulling ,clamping and so forth I don't exceed 3000psi if I have a desent setup.
15000 psi pumps are used for very specialized equipment , testing mostly but for example my 100 ton enerpac cylinders have at least a 1" wall machined from billet .
with out doing all the math I would please proceed carefully.
Even my little 10 ton benchtop press gets me spooked.
as far as connecting most 10000psi hoses are just 2 wire hydraulic hose like what is used on a excavator and steel lines are best be sure your fittings are rated for your needs
good luck and be care full HCF

ps check out the cages for operators on the big shop presses there is a good reason for them!

gbent · Jan 26, 2013

A large part of the safety consideration comes down to stored energy management. Whether this energy is stored in a compressed fluid or in deflected steel it can be a tremendous force. If through some failure this energy is released in a fraction of a second the tremendous force becomes essentially an explosion.

To minimize the energy stored in the fluid you have to keep low pressures. Use heavy walled tubing rather than flexible wire braided hose.

You have complete control of the energy stored by deflection of the steel structure. All steels deflect the same amount (within 1%) for a load that does not exceed the yield strength of the steel. Spending long dollars on heat treated 4340 steel will simply allow you to store more energy safely in the structure. This is not a good situation if the piece you are pressing fails and the structure releases the stored energy.

IMHO this is a situation where mass and proper cross sectional area is your friend much more than higher strength steels. Plain old A36 steel is wonderful. Keep your loading down to some small fraction of the yield strength for minimal stored energy. In this sort of situation you can take advantage of the large amount of elongation in the A36. Once you start to permanently deform A36 its a long way to the point where the steel will fracture. Higher strength steels will allow much more deflection without taking a permanent set, but the distance from permanent set to rupture is much less.

Dale Lusby · Jan 26, 2013

Would second the many safety hazards noted. I was trying to straighten a shaft on a 100 ton unit and before it yielded it snapped and flew across the shop. Luckily for me I had moved to the other side or it might have hit me in the face. Can't imagine the 3" x 24" solid hitting me with how fast it was moving. Dangerous stuff! That said it would be nice to have the 200 ton capacity and size. Just be extremely careful and cautious.

Garwood · Jan 26, 2013

This press would be used for drawing parts from .100" 4130 sheet. If I kept the same punch and die I currently use on my 35 ton press I wouldn't need more than 50 tons, but if I had 140 tons I would redesign the part and build a new punch and die to take advantage of that (I would add features to the part and more clamping force in the punch)

I had planned to put the power unit on top of the press frame and keep hoses to a minimum. If possible, I would make some guards to protect from leaks/spray if something happened.

I want it as rigid as I can afford to build it. Lots of mass is fine with me. Figured it would weigh a couple tons by the time it was finished.

Ries · Jan 26, 2013

If you look at the dimensions on the Enerpac 200 tonner, they are using more like 2" x 8" flat bar for the uprights, hence the ability to have 3" pins.

My guess is that the 1 1/4" x 6" flat bar you want to use is only good for about 100-150 tons.

I have a fifty ton press I built, and I use 1 1/2" pins on it.
The trick is to have a lift system for the cross bar/ platen assembly. I use a boat winch, with pulleys and wire rope, so I can raise and lower it easily, and that makes it easy to align the pins.
You can see the winch on the left side in this picture.

Garwood · Jan 27, 2013

Ries said:
If you look at the dimensions on the Enerpac 200 tonner, they are using more like 2" x 8" flat bar for the uprights, hence the ability to have 3" pins.

My guess is that the 1 1/4" x 6" flat bar you want to use is only good for about 100-150 tons.

I have a fifty ton press I built, and I use 1 1/2" pins on it.
The trick is to have a lift system for the cross bar/ platen assembly. I use a boat winch, with pulleys and wire rope, so I can raise and lower it easily, and that makes it easy to align the pins.
You can see the winch on the left side in this picture.

I'll have to put some more thought into the table support pins to keep them to a manageable size since 3" is larger than I'd like to deal with. I don't plan to move the table everyday, but want to make the press as efficient to use as it can be.

Greatbasin · Jan 27, 2013

We have a 200 ton very similiar to the one oldbikerdude has. It makes you duck behind the uprights when it gets to hammering hard.
Our press has two piston pumps driven from the line shaft. Made by firestone for changing hard rubber tires back in the teenage years. I use it often and works great. My two bits.

gbent · Jan 27, 2013

My Dake has a worm gear winch. This means no messing around with ratchet dogs for up/down, and the cable drum can't freewheel and let the cable loose.

DDoug · Jan 28, 2013

adama said:
You sure its 15Kpsi not some other unit, i have never heard of hydrulics being ran this high for just pressure duties. Your in the low water jet range pressure wise there. Hoses and pipe work is going to be bloody expensive! Seal life could also be a issue and again costly to replace.

Enerpac makes a 40 k psi hand pump for popping off taper hubs.

I made some tooling for a german made bolt stretch/tighten rig that ran 20 k psi

Cole2534 · Jan 29, 2013

Ran some numbers through my calc: 1" XX will get you to 19ksi or so. Fittings are gonna cost ya...

BudB · Feb 7, 2013

Sack-Kiesselbach has for years used pressures in the 10-15k range for hydraulic presses in the 1500-2500 ton range. Coining and hobbing need the high pressures and constant flow even at pressure. Most of their frames were investment cast weighing 4-20 tons. Piping was massive and a 18-30" piston was not uncommon. The cylinder was lifted to the nearly closed position by slave cylinders while the bottom of the cylinder was open to the tank with the check valve from hell. If field piping was required Parker EO tite-bite fittings were the ticket.

200 ton H frame press design?

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