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Looking for Laser Costs

Walter A

Titanium
Joined
Jul 7, 2007
Location
Hampton, Virginia
I am beginning to get tired of competing against local shops that have lasers and can burn rather than drill holes. Our plasma is just not up to the task if it needs to be straight, square and accurate.

I really do not know much about the costs or details involved in purchasing and setting up a laser cutting system.

I would be looking for something to cut carbon steel 99% of the time and for now would be happy with being able to set up 48"x 96" plates and cut up to 1/2" thick.

We have plenty of 480v power plus air if needed. I can build my own table if it is similar to the water table I built for my plasma/torch.

Some of the stuff I have questions on is:
New vs used?
Consumable cost?
Programing (we use C-Cut now)?
Maintenance issues?
Operating costs?
Cutting speed and accuracy of the different brands?
Are there any companies who offer leasing or payment plans?
Anything else to think about?

Thanks,
Walter A.
 
I would take a look at Trumpf lasers. New just like anything else your covered under the warranty. For a used system I would make sure you had a qualified tech to do any maintenance in a timely manner. Programming you may have to look at something else if C-Cut will not write a post and you really should have true shape nesting capability. Don’t forget about insulation cost. I have a link on my web site for someone that does maintenance and installations. If your interested I can give you contacts for new and used resellers.

Independent CNC Programmer
www.independentcnc.com

My mission is to share CNC programming innovations for a lifetime.
 
Greg, Any particular reason to look at the Trumpf lasers? What costs have you experianced with them vs the other brands?

Yes the C-Cut will write a post and has nesting but we have been using it for many years. Comparing C-Cut to the other programs what do you feel are the main differences?

Walter A.
 
Forum member Jimcolt works for hypertherm. PM him and ask him to visit this thread and post a comparison between laser and high defination plasma. I think on 1/2 and thicker material the hd plasma compares very well.
 
Too bad, we just sold 4 Cincinnati laser for 50K each. Might have a lead on a couple cheap Trumpf's but they are not pretty.
 
HD plasma, with all the bells and whistles, is below $100k.
That is high speed, more accurate, and will cut pretty thick.

Lasers are easy, $150k, and can jump to $250k or $500k without much trouble.
Lasers are usually best at much thinner materials- 1/2" is a very beefy laser.

HD plasma is a lot cheaper to run than laser, as well.

Seat of the pants that I have heard (I dont own one) is that a laser is gonna run you a quarter million dollars, and needs at least 2 shifts 5 days a week on good paying parts to make it pencil out.

An old employee of mine, that I laid off, due to the slowdown, is now running a laser/turret press full time- it does amazing stuff, but it is always hungry- hungry for work, hungry for money.
 
I sent Jim a PM. Thanks to everyone for the input so far. I am still digesting the information. From the number Reis is giving a Laser may not be the best but I know I have to do something or quit quoting on this type of jobs.

Walter A.
 
Walter - at fabtech in 2008 (I think) I saw a machine which was a plasma, maybe a high def plasma, AND a sort of drill/tap machine with an ATC.

I went so far as to get a quote. Now of course I cannot find any of that.

Ah, it is most likely these folks:
plasma cutting machines, cnc plasma cutting, cutting machines, cnc plasma cutting machines, oxy fuel plasma cutters, hypertherm plasma cutters, water jet cutting machine

Since I've lost the quote, I have no idea what it cost, but I recall at the time it didn't make me wince.

You now know everything I know about it - like I have zero idea how well it works in practice. But it might (or might not) be helpful for your work flow.

(I remember thinking that the ability to drill with an actual drill followed by tapping right there on the spot seemed very compelling.)
 
Bryan, Yes this is a real neat machine and it would suit my needs fairly well but limits itself to round holes only. They don't claim to be able to mill and the rack & pinion drive would support that. However with the right plasma unit I may not need to mill.

I will shoot them an email later.

Learning more & more!

Walter A.
 
I picked up an older Amada Laser, and Amada is covering it with a full warranty. They offered to cover it sight unseen, provided they installed it, and it worked for the install.

I'm not going to say what I paid for mine, but it was less then industrial non HD plasma systems on eBay. Was it worth it? Absolutely. I've had to replace about 2' of 6mm push-lock air line. Beyond that, only normal maintenance so far.

I have a 1500W laser, and it is capable of cutting 1/2" mild steel. It's rated for 1/4" MS. Cut quality is better at 1/4", but 1/2" is still an acceptable cut by plasma standards.

What it comes down to. Plasma will cut faster and thicker. Laser has a better cut quality, and can do non-metals if necessary.
 
I should be clear- I was talking about NEW prices.

Used prices are always impossible to discuss apples to apples with- some people pay 5% of new for a used machine, others pay 90%.

It really depends on the machine, the location, and the buyer and seller.

Certainly, if you can get a $150,000 machine for twenty grand, then it changes all the cost equations radically.

But most used lasers are still a lot of money, and need expensive parts and service.
 
We were looking at a used Trumph laser engraver / marker a few years ago. High end system, top of the line stuff.
Called for pricing on replacement parts:
VERY expensive.
Went with another make used.
Much more reasonable. Find out what it would take to keep a trumph running compared to the others.
 
I was mentioning low price, and old equipment just to make a statement about Amada being willing to still warranty my old machine.

So far as replacement parts. I have an older roots style blower, instead of a turbo style in the laser. It needs replaced at 50-60,000 hours, and it's going to cost about $60,000. Nope, not cheap at all.
 
Walter,

Thanks for inviting me into this thread....there always is a lot of misunderstanding between capabilities, purchase cost and performance between plasma systems and laser systems for cutting sheet and plate.

First....we have to be careful to understand that not all plasma systems are equal. Every day I see people comparing air plasma systems on entry level cnc machines (price range for a 5 x 10 cutting machine that can cut 1/2" steel...under $20,000) to C02 laser systems with 2.5 to 6 kW lasers (price range of $250,000 to $600,000). The only advantage you will see in this type of comparison is that the plasma system is cheaper to purchase.

When comparing plasma to laser, be sure to compare the correct equipment! There are 3 distinct classes of plasma cutters that I classify as 1. Air plasma , 2. Industrial oxygen plasma, 3. High Definition class plasma.

1. Air plasma systems were designed primarily as hand held, portable, low cost plasma cutting systems. Because of their low cost...they have pretty much opened up a lower etchelon market of cnc plasma cutting machines that are well suited for low tolerance cutting applications such as low volume metal fabricating, HVAC ductwork fabricating, metal art fabricating as well as for a variety of maintenance shop uses. The market is relatively large, and many plasma system users have the impression that this is plasma! An air plasma system that can cut 1/2" carbon steel on a 5 x 10 cnc cutting machine with torh height control and CAM software can be had for under $20,000. This system can cut steel parts with tolerances in the plus or minus .030" range, and the cost per foot of cut on 1/2" plate will be in the less than 20 cent range, with cut speeds of about 25 to 30 inches per minute. The air plasma will create a bit of a taper on the cut edge (some systems work better than others) and will have some nitride hardening caused by the nitrogen content in air. Duty cycle ratings of these air plasma systems are generally less than 60% when cutting near max capacity.

2. Industrial Oxygen plasma systems are designed strictly for high duty cycle (100%) mechanized plate cutting on cnc machines. These plasma systems use microprocessor controlled gas and current outputs as well as high tech liquid cooled torch designs that dramatically improve consumable life, as well as increasing cut speed and improving cut quality as compared to air plasma systems. CNC machine builders generally install these plasma systems on cutting machines designed to provide years of trouble free service in high use industrial applications. A typical 5 x 10 machine in this market would be priced in the $60,000 to $85,000 range, and couuld produce cut part accuracies in the plus or minus .020" range. Cut speed on 1/2" steel (130 Amp plasma) would be about 100 inches per minute, and the cost per foot of cut would be in the $.10 range. Cut edge metalurgy is superior to air plasma with a much softer edge (oxygen process) and there will be less chance of edge taper and dross.....secondary operations will be at a minimum. Thes plasma systems are available up to 400 Amps with steel cutting capacity to 2".

3. High definition class plasma. These systems use advance technology in the power supply, gas flow control and the torch to increase the plasma arc energy density to as much as 4 times the energy of an air plasma system. This generates a 60,000 amp per square inch arc energy density, a narrower cut kerf, very square cut edge angularity, minimal edge hardness, and high cutting speeds. The latest technology with these systems (Hypertherm calls it True Hole Technology) eliminates the taper found in plasma cut holes...now you can cut virtually taper free, round holes on gauge to 1" thick steel with plasma....faster than drilling or laser, with ease of use and low cost of plasma. A typical 130 amp high definition class plasma with True Hole technology on a 5 x 10 cnc (precision) machine will sell in the $100,000 to $150,000 price range. This system will cut 1/2" steel at 100 inches per minute with cut part accuracy in the plus or minus .010" range, and with a cost per foot of cut in the $.12 range. High Definition plasma systems are available to 400 Amps for cutting up to 2" thick steel.

That should clarify pricing and operating cost of plasma! Now how does it compare to laser?

Typical rule of thumb: Laser cutting is more productive and more accurate on carbon steel thinner than 3/16", High Definition plasma starts to get more productive above 3/16", and at about 3/8" (with True Hole) becomes very similar to the accuracy of plate lasers. but with higher productivity and lower cost per foot/part.

Other plasma advantages...lower cost, easier maintenance. Easy to use operate, the newest plasma cnc systems require virtually no operator training, with all of the normal operator inputs being set automatically by the CAM software....the operator loads plate on the table, positions the torch, pushes the start button, unloads the cut parts.

If I was looking at cutting a lot of 1/2" carbon steel and needed to choose the best process.....I would first look at my needs in terms of cut part accuracy. Laser will be slightly better at this thickness range...but perhaps plasma is good enough. I would look at Capital equipment cost (plasma will win hands down) and operating cost. Plasma, in this thickness range will produce more parts than laser at slightly looser tolerances, at a dramatically lower cost.

Hopefully this keeps the discussion on this thread going! Couple of pics of typical High Definition class plasma cuts attached. Also wanted to mention one thing....Hypertherm will be demonstrating some new laser technology at the Fabtech show in November, it will be a Fiber Laser.....which is a 1/2" capacity plate laser that can be mounted on a conventional cnc cutting machine...similar to a precision plasma cutting machine. We will demonstrate it side by side with one of our HPRxd (True Hole Enabled) plasma systems for a good comparison!

best regards, Jim Colt Hypertherm
 

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CNC turret punch?

OK, since this is a great thread, I'll throw this other (naive) thought into the works.

Plasma, Laser, Waterjet, and for that matter Oxy-fuel, all cut in flat XY space, and can cut most any shape, limited by depth, kerf, edge-quality, etc.

Punches have to nibble or shear, except, for course, when they have tooling appropriate for the hole which is desired.

So not knowing Walter's workflow at all (and not owning any of these machines) I would be *wondering* if a CNC punch press with a well selected stock of tooling would be a good choice.

Now, of course, if what you get is orders for sheets of steel full of holes, all shaped in a unique way never seen before nor to be seen again, a punch won't help much.

Given that the high-end players all seem to over machines that are combined laser/punch machines, somebody thinks there's merit to that.
 
Seems to me one would have to have one helluva lot of steady work ie. manufacturing your own product,to justify the kind of investment needed to be competetive in this business. Maybe better to walk away and let someone else get rich. Ten years ago there was one laser here and the guy was charging like a bandit. Now there are probably 20+ laser/plasma/water jet machines around some sitting idle and more capacity coming.Pricing has come down dramatically.
Bob
 








 
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