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I need advice on a Synchrowave 250 problem

Michael Moore

Titanium
Joined
Jun 4, 2004
Location
San Francisco, CA
I bought my Miller Synchrowave new in June of 2007. It probably has less than 25 hours total time on it in my home shop. It has worked fine until now.

A few days ago I was doing some aluminum welding and the machine started acting up. Sometimes it would work OK, sometimes it would barely start a weak arc and that would blow out as soon as I started to depress the pedal, and now and then as soon as I tried to start an arc it would blow a crater (as though I'd gone full throttle) and the arc would then go out immediately. Yesterday I was going to do some steel with DCN and it wasn't working at all when I tried to start an arc. I didn't try to do anything in DCP or AC.

When I turn the machine on it shows V 209, A 882. On DCP and AC it then goes to V --- and shows the amps it is set at in A. On DCN after 209/882 I get V -5 and A (blank, no display) which then goes to V HLP and A -11.

I've pulled the cover. The spark gaps are fine and I'm not seeing any obvious signs of arcing/blown capacitors/dangling wires. There is what I presume is a conductive grease on the blades in the main polarity switch. The switch hasn't been moved a large number of times.

HLP -11 is "output selector switch is not in correct position". That only shows up on the DCN position. Sometimes when the welder would stop working there'd be a -5 shown which is "rectifier assembly has overheated". This could happen even with the machine having only a few minutes of use from cold.

I can't find in the manual what the transient 5 in the V display might mean when in DCN.

Any ideas on a next step?

I'll admit I'm pretty bummed out. I'd had an old Miller 330 that I replaced with this new Synchrowave when the 330 died in the middle of a project. I'd been hoping that spending the money on a brand new machine would get me trouble-free operation for a very long time considering how infrequently I use it.

thanks,
Michael
 
Michael, I have the same machine and mine shows a 5 for a moment when starting up in any of the three modes.

Do you have the pulser option and if so make sure it is off ? Another thought is to verify your input power ?
 
Mark, I just checked and the -5 does show up in any of the three positions when starting with the power switch. The DCN is the only one that gives the HLP code.

There's 238V where the incoming wires attach to the machine.

There's no options like pulser, and the water cooler/pump is a remote unit that runs off one of the switched 120v plugs on the lower front right of the machine. I'm not any kind of electronics technician so other than doing things like checking voltages or ohms I'm not going to be able to do much checking on the electronics.

I did some googling and it sounds like I should see what it does with the foot pedal disconnected and switched over to "no remote" on the control. But the foot pedal was new with the machine. There's no dust inside the welder but I suppose the foot pedal could have picked up some corrosion or somethimg so I may have to open it to take a look.

cheers,
Michael
 
Michael, I have the same machine and just out of warranty with even less hours I experienced similar problems. I took it to the Miller repair facility who struggled with a diagnosis. Finally they called Miller and there was problems with a capacitor. A new capacitor solved the problem. Legdoc
 
Thanks, calling the Miller tech line is on my list once I feel I've tested everything I can test, and then get the findings organized. I've been busy with other things the last couple of days, but tomorrow may be good for talking to Miller.

cheers,
Michael
 
Two different machines BUT, My Miller 210 MIG acted up a few years ago and finally found ground clamp, wire to clamp connection dirty.
Also check any external plug ins. Simple fixes are always good.
 
The news is not looking good.

FYI the Miller tech support person says that the V209 A882 -5 sequence at turn-on is the software number with -5 being the revision code.

The HLP 5 overheated rectifier may be a bad thermistor. He says that should be about 30K ohms at room temperature, and seeing 15 or 45 would definitely be outside the acceptable range. I unplugged the two-pin RC5 Molex connector and got 41.5K ohms, so that would make it sound like that thermistor (not very expensive) is probably worth replacing.

On the other hand, the HLP 11 out of position error is a board-level error. I'm seeing the blades make and break continuity as I move the switch, so there's a problem with the PCB reading the info from the switch. I think he said that having it show up in the DCN position only supports that. He said it is probably 90% likely that the PCB is the problem.

The board in the welder is #209877 and he says the current part# is 237587. The new board has various improvements and replaces the earlier part. It also comes with some bits of revised wiring and some small components that get replaced/added at the same time.

The price on the new board is $883.09. I paid $2600 for the welder when I bought it so I guess I should feel happy that I'm only spending 1/3 the purchase price to fix it after minimal use instead of 1/2 or more, but I'm having trouble finding much joy in the situation. It's going to need to go in to have the board and related components (and maybe that thermistor) replaced so I can probably add enough service fees to easily bump the total up to $1K. There'll be $80ish dollars in sales tax on the board too.

He mentioned that there are places that do board-level repairs, but the way I look at it if one thing is failing it is possible that other parts are also stressed and could be heading down the road to failure. Plus, the new version of the board adds extra protective features for the machine. So I don't see much benefit to maybe saving a couple hundred dollars by resurrecting (if possible) the current part.

This machining/fabricating hobby sure gets expensive some (many) times. Oh well . . . .

cheers,
Michael
 
Michael, I have the same machine and just out of warranty with even less hours I experienced similar problems. I took it to the Miller repair facility who struggled with a diagnosis. Finally they called Miller and there was problems with a capacitor. A new capacitor solved the problem. Legdoc

Yep, there's a website dedicated to bad circuit board caps.

Badcaps.net - Badcaps Home
 
Michael , this may sound like apples and oranges but I had my flat screen TV fixed in home just recently under warranty and the culprit was bad capacitors , 8 of them, the guy replaced them all in 20 minutes and all is good for the last 6 months.

He said the Samsung TV's had a batch of bad caps in them, you can tell when the cap is bad by looking at the end of them , when bad they swell up like the jiffy pop popcorn foil deal !

I would get the caps/ board fixed and move on. Don't buy the board till you have to. It sounds like you are buying what they should have sold ya to begin with !
 
The good thing about your machine is the circuit board is not complex.

Aeris acquire Arc Gas Products a few years ago.
Gunther Baum is the service and and store manager.
He used to do field service and knows the Miller line inside out.
cell 408 656 4134

Art Phillips is a traveling field service person. He might be able
to go right to your location. He did for me.
[email protected]
cell 408 656 4138

main 408 287 2893
 
rons, Aeris now seems to be a part of Matheson Gas, the domain redirects to Matheson. I like the idea of having someone with a recommendation, but they are 60 miles away and that means either my time/money to make two round trips (drop off and pick up) or paying for one or two round trips for a tech (presuming they don't have all the parts on hand the first visit) vs two trips across town. Dealing with San Jose seems like it would add expense.

I inspected the mainboard after looking at that capacitor website and I saw no signs of failed capacitors (or arcing etc). It doesn't mean that there aren't some, but there was nothing obvious to me.

Board repair (if possible) seems like something I'd want to use on obsolete equipment, especially if Miller has a new version of the board with changes designed to make it more robust.

I used to import some electronic ignitions and the amplifier boxes would sometimes fail. My supplier **could** repair them, but preferred that I supply a new box that they could warranty as a new item (and go back to the manufacturer of that component for reimbursement) Their view was that if one component blew out, there's no telling how many other components were stressed in that and might test OK but still be marginal and cause problems down the road. That makes some sense to me.

A Miller-dealer repair with new Miller parts (the local Praxxair shop where I get gas is a "Miller Authorized Service Agencies – trained technicians and genuine parts") should come with some sort of warranty (and I'll definitely ask about that). Even if it is only 30 days, that would be good as long as I stress the welder during that time period. If I need to melt a pound or two of rod down on some scrap to test it, I can manage that if it is needed.

I'm all for saving some money, but I don't want to be penny wise and pound foolish and have to go through this again if a board repair vs a board replacement doesn't take care of all the problems for the long term.

I figure there's going to be an hour of diagnostic time no matter what the problem is -- I'm sure not going to tell them what the diagnosis **seems** to be, I'm going to give them the symptoms and see how many things they come up with that match what the Miller tech told me. If they come up with mainboard and thermistor after their testing, then I'll take that as a cross-check. Maybe they'll find something else, though there doesn't seem to be a lot of other things inside the box to go wrong.

cheers,
Michael
 
Art travels the Bay Area. He came over to my place and had no agenda or service charge.
His job is to trouble-shoot Miller sites. I have another idea. Don't take my advise and see
what else you get outta here. Good luck.
 
I do appreciate you taking the time to give advice, but while I'll consider everything that is offered, I've still got to do something that leaves me feeling most comfortable about the course of action taken (just like everyone who asks for advice must do). All advice is appreciated, but not all advice will be implemented.

Art/the shop he works out of didn't turn up on the Miller site as a factory-authorized service source in the Bay area, and I've never seen a repair tech that was going to make housecalls and fix things free of charge. Unless he is some sort of roving Miller employee paid by the factory to do that it seemed safe to assume that he'd be charging for his travel and service time like everyone else seems to do. 120 mile round trip service calls didn't sound like they would be inexpensive.

At this time, when it looks like the major electronic component in the machine is quite possibly toast, replacement with an upgraded new part is sounding more promising to me for a long term fix. If I'm going that route, having it done by a Miller-authorized shop means that if I have to I can drag Miller into things if I've got some problem with the work that is done locally, or if the parts don't hold up. Aeris would probably be just fine, but if I'm going to deal with repair people I'd prefer to have them close enough where I can easily go back to see them if some followup action is needed.

cheers,
Michael
 
Board repair (if possible) seems like something I'd want to use on obsolete equipment, especially if Miller has a new version of the board with changes designed to make it more robust.


Michael, I just gotta know, what does "robust" mean ????

If you want the new board from the dealer, I take it you didn't buy it from this guy, go for it.

Circuit boards are fixed everyday, everywhere, I just don't get the "things might be stressed" either.

If you have only used this machine 25 hours since new , what do you plan to "stress" it ?

I too own a 2006 250 SW and have 100's of hours on it, I will keep an eye out for the same issues and hopefully will dodge them.

Good Luck and please do keep us informed.
 
Mark, I got it from Indiana Oxygen (IIRC) who are a big dealer that sells at good prices over the web.

The Miller tech support guy said the new revision of the board had extra components on it to add more protection for some of the circuits because of some problems that had been experienced, and that there were a couple of additional separate components that would come with it and also be wired in. I don't recall exactly what he said the extra stuff did -- I'm not an electron person so it's "oh, that's nice, wonder what he's talking about?" when things get technical. I can deal with electrons at a plumbing level, where they get poured in one end of a wire and fall out the other end. I can check continuity and read a voltage, but beyond that point I lack the knowledge to know what the next 20 steps are.

If the fault was something that could cause a spike of excessively high voltage to surge through the board it seems like that could blow out some parts and others might survive but have had their life shortened. Maybe some things exceeded their UTS and others just went past the yield point and are a little bent, beats me. :) Maybe one of those little 25 cent parts on the board just gave up the ghost for no particular reason and if found and fixed will be fine. I'm sure that is a possibility.

With the parts I used to sell if they got past the first 10-20 hours of use without failing they were generally good indefinitely. I have the impression that is a common trait with electronics. If they failed in that early period they were warranteed with no questions asked. My welder is low enough hours that I'm thinking it is still in the "burn in period". Yours sounds like one that is well past that point and as long as it doesn't get hit by a lightning strike (a scenario the tech raised but I told him lightning is pretty uncommon here) or something like that it may well last forever barring some mechanical part like the on/off switch going out.


I started out asking for advice on things to check to try and determine if this was a simple problem I could fix or something that would have to go to a tech. It looks like I'm past the "I can fix this with a screwdriver and contact cleaner" point.

I've now gotten conflicting advice on what I could do for a "technician-level fix" and I've got to pick one route (repair attempt or part replacement) or the other. As I said upthread, at this time I'd feel more comfortable with a new and allegedly improved mainboard and some sort of line of recourse if it fails soon vs an attempt to fix this board that may or may not be successful in both the short and long runs.

If it was the case of the obviously leaking/bulging capacitor I'd probably go for a repair attempt. But it looks like the thermistor has gone bad at the same time something on the mainboard has gone bad and while that could just be coincidence, if multiple parts are failing at once it makes me wonder if there's some widespread damage.

I may be spending more money than I need to, or I may be spending the same amount of money either way but a week sooner than if I have someone attempt to do a repair that doesn't work.

The welder has normally sat for months at a time and then gotten used for a few minutes and then sits again, other than a few times when I've welded for several hours in a day. What I will do this time is try and give it an extended "burn in" period. I'll turn the thing on in the morning and let it be powered on all day for a week or two, and try to get some welding of both AC and DCN and various amperages done so it gets a chance to exercise the various control circuits. If I get a month or two warranty period and the electronics can survive being powered on for 50-100 hours then they might be assumed to not be harboring any hidden defects.

At least that's the way it looks to me.

cheers,
Michael
 
I will try one more time. If Art is traveling up in San Francisco he may be able to stop
by your place for no charge. He wears a business suit and very knowledgeable. He
will be able to tell you what is wrong by looking at your machine. Call them up and
just say "the next time you are in SF would you mind looking at a 250".

The location that he works out of now called Aeris has a full blown bottle filling service.
Art came over my place because I was having a problem welding Aluminum. He discovered
what was wrong in under 10 minutes by logical deduction. I think he is paid a salary to
do his job.
 
I'll drop him an email and see what he says. If it doesn't cost me anything it is worth a shot, and who knows, maybe he'll tell me that it clearly needs the mainboard replace.

cheers,
Michael
 
In the meantime have you attempted to reset the 250. Look in your manual.
Turn power off, press Process Control, Amp Control, Output Control, Start Control buttons
all together and turn power on. Keep pressing buttons for 7 seconds. It's worth a try.
 








 
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