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noob fundamental question about presses

shackleblister

Plastic
Joined
Mar 19, 2018
Location
new haven CT
Hello, 34 years experience and it has all been wood. except for the rigging.and that was mostly just building vessel mooring components. trying a little blacksmithing with my sons, and know absolutely nothing about presses (fly, hydraulic,screw, arbor).I know I don't want my finger under a 3 ton,and I now know that is not nearly the power I need to do this job. We wish to press a 1.75" x 8" (round) "dish", into a 12" piece of 1/8" flat steel. Literally the first step in making a carbon steel skillet. We can hammer forge the wrinkles out later. What type/capacity press would be best for this application? The #3 Greenerd was a bust (probably no surprise here). How about an 80 Ton hydraulic?

Thanks. Shack
 
okay that's great- we like anything that has to do with overkill.

the guy that had the greenerd (CL), told me not to even waste my time looking at the 80 ton- said it would never work I would need something like 40,000lbs or some such nonsense. also said I could likely destroy the press or worse- get myself injured.

I agree the 1/8" is pretty stout now that I have a few 12" rounds. what could be the hazards in trying this? I really don't need a steel Frisbee in the gut, but if i'm pressing straight down, and in the center SLOWLY... what are the precautions I should take.

still want advice on presses in general.

thx. shack
 
the guy that had the greenerd (CL), told me not to even waste my time looking at the 80 ton- said it would never work I would need something like 40,000lbs or some such nonsense.



40000lbs is.......20 tons :D

Not sure exactly what you're trying to do; Are you using some sort of form to make the pan in the press?

Seems like if you had to heat and beat the edges anyway just clamp the blank between two heavy pieces (your form) heat up the edges and knock them down around the lower form.
 
Did you mention to him that 80 tons is 160,000 lbs?

well actually I didn't bother, figured that was pretty obvious.

and I didn't feel like arguing with a guy who "been doin this kinda stuff for 40 years"

and i rarely waste my time arguing with anybody on craigslist : )
 
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yes i have a form (upper and lower dies).

was trying to eliminate the need to "heat n beat" the entire project.

thought it would be nice to just mash it in a press, then move to the forge.
 
Do you have a disc of steel 1.75" x 8" or a piece of round stock 1.75" x 8" long? If you have the disc and are going to attempt to squeeze it down to .125" thick, you will need a serious press, 100's of tons perhaps. Perhaps less if you use some kind of top tool like a large ball bearing welded to a rod but you a looking at a lot of work. If its the bar stock, a 30 ton press with proper dies could work it down but I don't understand how you will end up with a skillet form then. Take a look at the hydraulic press builds on youtube to get an idea of what they are capable of and what might work for you. Hydraulic presses need to move quickly since they are drawing the heat from your work piece while the dies are in contact.
 
I would guess that 30 to 40 tons would be enough.
Are you doing it hot? you should.

Here is patrick, who is pretty much THE guy for this kind of thing, making skillets. He doesnt use steel as thick as 1/8", because it would be overkill, but you can see the process in this video. He is a really good blacksmith, so he makes it look easy, and, after 20 years or so, it will be.

Blu Skillet Ironware - YouTube

Another guy I know makes these- they are more industrial, as he is an industrial designer.
The are pressed cold, on a much bigger press- I havent seen it in person (the press) but I think its around a 200 ton machine. No hot work in these, just press, trim, and sand.
Tienda Online de DARTO

two different approaches- Patrick does it by hand, with pretty minimal equipment, while Darto sends it out to a big forging/ press shop, and they spent the money on dies, so every one is the same, and prices can be lower. I have not owned one of Patricks- they are expensive and sell out in a few hours everytime he sells- but I have some Darto's, and they cook well, and are very nicely made.
 
Now I understand.
I once made fireplace shovels out of .125" steel in a 500lb drop hammer and did them hot. The dies were simple "U" shaped pieces of round stock, the top one being slightly smaller to allow for the thickness of the shovel material. They worked well and one of my coworkers borrowed them and went into production but used a Nazel forging hammer to form them.
 
The gentleman who says I am trying to shape 1/8" sheet stock is correct.

My dies (prototypes, for the sole purpose of determining what press will work)consist of a 3" Length of 10" ID pipe. This will be the female or bottom mold. The top die is yes, a 2" thick piece of 8" billet. It is understood the sheet will start out at 12" diameter. Push it into the pipe=10 skillet.

Your videos are spot on my intentions Ries!

Thank you for your support guys, your optimism keeps me going.

Maybe no steel frisbee in the gut after all.
 
yes i have a form (upper and lower dies).

was trying to eliminate the need to "heat n beat" the entire project.

thought it would be nice to just mash it in a press, then move to the forge.

If you have the punch & die, why not find a local shop with a
"Big enough" (think oversize) hydraulic press, and
run over there with about 5 blanks and run them ?

Take note of the press gage, and you'll know exactly how much
tonnage you need.
 
That sounds like a great idea, might beat chasing down CL ads to do it myself.

As I said, I'm pretty green, and did not occur to me that there even is a press gage, so thanks.

fwiw, I am getting lots of conflicting advice (for example- "what you want to do CANNOT be done).

thankfully I am at a point where I can spend (waste) some time to determine the feasibility.
 
Thought maybe I would give an update. So I found a 100 year old flypress from the Winchester Arms factory in New Haven. Decided to give it a whirl. Quite literally, as seen in pics the handle for moving the screw has a solid steel ball at the opposite end. This sphere itself must be 75#.

I center my dies and the practice material, and bring the screw into contact, and my material actually flexes! Now I get to really cranking on the old girl, two guys, we go slow and steady, then change it up to fast and kind of like stabbing at the disc. Careful not to flip the press over as she's not bolted to the floor. Weighs probably a ton anyway, but the seller tells me have at it "not gonna hurt her".

Well I can say that I did not exactly get the indentation I was looking for, you can see it looks more like a dish than a skillet. But of course this was without the benefit of heat, and so was somewhat encouraged. Although I think with that 3" thick base she would be a heat sink, so will need to move quick.

Anyway I am sitting on the purchase for a few days, but I can attest to the fact that when I was operating the crank myself, it truly felt like the other end where that ball is, it may as well have been another guy! Cool.IMG_20180412_133412779.jpgIMG_20180412_140346177.jpg
 
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FLY PRESS - Device that converts rotory motion into downward force, does this by spinning the handle as hard and fast as possible, you convert that kinetic energy into tonnage as things come to a halt. Flypresses used properly your not able to harm them with the handle and weights they come with.

If you have not got it pegged - bolted to the floor you lose at least half or more of your tonnage as the press then rotates. Fly presses need to be on something solid and it needs to be pegged so it can not rotate on the floor.

That handle does not look original, nearly always there forged and longer than the press is wide, also normally on anything over a number 4-5 you have two balls so the weights balanced. 2 balls are nice, you can remove them for delicate stuff that only needs a wee nip, for squidgeing the snot out of stuff you want 2!

Tonnage wise though fly presses are odd beasts, for something like your doing you will be needing a few hits, it probably won't generate anything much over 5 tons till you start to bottom out the tooling, then the tonnage seams to go way up on them. Yours there on a hard stop you may well see in the 15-20 tons range once bolted down. That said its going to be a lot of swings to use it for a drawing operation like you want. Thats were hydulic presses realy shine, long high force strokes!

As to people telling you you can't, only listen to the ones that tell you why you can't do that and then solve that part of the issue!
 
30-40 ton hydraulic would do that no problem.

Forming material is a mix of science and art and there are solid, sound ways to do what you're trying. Your setup is pretty backyard.

IMO, your punch and die are just way too crude to get something nice from, but I don't know what you're going for.

Lathe turn a punch and die and make a thick plate to clamp the perimeter. Give it some way to hold the punch and die in alignment. Use a bunch of clamps to hold the outside flat. Put some oil on it and see what happens.

Mild steel will come out near net. It doesn't have much spring back in it.
 
after watching the video of the Blu-Iron forge in Ballard - I was reminded of a place called SeaForge that used to make Kedge Anchors and all manner of stuff in Ballard when I was a teenager. I could watch the hammer press all day long - it was my first experience watching forging and hammer work and I'll never forget the way the floor shook every time he brought the reciprocating head down onto the red hot steel.

After watching this vid -> Blu Skillet Ironware on Day 29!! - YouTube . . . :crazy: reminds me of the show Portlandia
 








 
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