Pipe Notching

Not sure if this is the best forum section for this thread, but it didn't seem to fit into the fabrication section much better.

I am on a college SAE Baja team. We do a lot of pipe notching making our frame.We would like to do it in a more efficient and safer way.

Our current method is to clamp each member in the vise on the mill and then feed the quill down by hand using what I can best describe as a ball nose insert endmill. I can't find anything like it online, but I will post pics when I can. This generally leads to acceptable results but is very time consuming for anything besides 90 degree joints. Plus there is a ton of chatter no matter what speed it is done at (expected when plunge cutting with an endmill). I don't feel comfortable pawning this task off on most people because our quill doesn't have a return spring so it will just fall if you don't lock it down tight. Which could lead to personal injury and equipment damage.

Some of the more complicated joints are just done by hand with an angle grinder and precision guess work.

We have looked at products like the notchmaster and eastwood pipe notcher, but just don't know if they will hold up. Hole saws don't get along with our 4130 thin wall chromoly very well.

Unfortunately we have almost no money to work with and the best we could get out of either of those companies for sponsorship was 10% off.

What other options are out there on a budget? Are there any companies that are worth reaching out to for potential sponsorships? We don't need the latest and greatest shiny machine. Most of our equipment is from the 60s-90s and still running strong (with the expected backlash and scars from student misuse).

Several Ifs. If a Hougen cutter is the right size and if you can make a rigid mill setup it is simple.

nerdyrcdriver said:

Not sure if this is the best forum section for this thread, but it didn't seem to fit into the fabrication section much better.

I am on a college SAE Baja team. We do a lot of pipe notching making our frame.We would like to do it in a more efficient and safer way.

Our current method is to clamp each member in the vise on the mill and then feed the quill down by hand using what I can best describe as a ball nose insert endmill. I can't find anything like it online, but I will post pics when I can. This generally leads to acceptable results but is very time consuming for anything besides 90 degree joints. Plus there is a ton of chatter no matter what speed it is done at (expected when plunge cutting with an endmill). I don't feel comfortable pawning this task off on most people because our quill doesn't have a return spring so it will just fall if you don't lock it down tight. Which could lead to personal injury and equipment damage.

Some of the more complicated joints are just done by hand with an angle grinder and precision guess work.

We have looked at products like the notchmaster and eastwood pipe notcher, but just don't know if they will hold up. Hole saws don't get along with our 4130 thin wall chromoly very well.

Unfortunately we have almost no money to work with and the best we could get out of either of those companies for sponsorship was 10% off.

What other options are out there on a budget? Are there any companies that are worth reaching out to for potential sponsorships? We don't need the latest and greatest shiny machine. Most of our equipment is from the 60s-90s and still running strong (with the expected backlash and scars from student misuse).

Click to expand...

I used to have a block that would replace the tool post on my old SouthBend Lathe.
the block would hold the tube at any angle you want on the spindle centerline. Just put the correct size end mill in the lathe chuck, use the carriage feed and cross feed to quickly notch your tubing. No chatter, nothing stupid going on, easy peasy.

On 316 stainless steel pipe I've had mostly good luck using a carbide hole saw in heavy duty mandrel on y vertical mill.

Get a roughing endmill like this, in the diameter of notch that you need, and feed the tube into the side of the endmill. That will give you a completely different perspective on notching in a mill - hardly any chatter compared to a standard endmill. They also have less tendency to grab and fold in the side of the thin tubing.



To make angled notches easier, make a tubing vise. A drill press vise is a good start, make a Vblock shaped fixed jaw to hold the tubing securely. Then make a mount for the bottom, with a bananna shaped lug welded to the bottom. you can hold the lug in your milling vise and tilt the tubing vise to the angle of your notch, and not worry about the tubing slipping out of the mill vise while milling the notch. Way better than a hole saw type notcher. You can also mount the vise to a lathe compound and put the endmill in the chuck. If the shank of the endmill is small (under 1"), put it in an endmill holder for a mill and hold the large head of the EMHolder in the chuck, it's more secure that way.

nerdyrcdriver said:

Some of the more complicated joints are just done by hand with an angle grinder and precision guess work.

Click to expand...

99% of the pro cars in existence have at least some notches done this way. After about a hundred notches you'll get really good at it When I was building cars I often did easy joints this way because it was faster to hold it in one hand over my knee and grind with the other than to walk back and forth to a machine. Having a swivel head vise bolted to something heavy right next to your work will help a lot. Get silver artist's pencils to draw the shape of the notch on the tube while you hold it in place. You can rough off the majority of the unneeded material with a chop saw or bandsaw. Cutting paper towel rolls with scissors can provide you with a template to follow. Cheating alert - If you have mirror image joints, once you have one side done, wrap a piece of paper around the tube and trace the end of the notch on the paper. Then unwrap the paper and reverse it around the opposite side tube, and draw it on with the silver pencil.

SAE Mini Baja IS THE BEST !!! Hats off! But really the NorthEastern University team is gonna trounce you! ;-)

With that ....

I worked building aviation seating products for a number of years. We started with Mills, tried "jiggers" and all the hot rod tooling etc.

What WORKED (since we used only 3/4 and 1 inch dia 4130 tube) was radius dressed grind wheels and mylar templates produced by any of the (now on-line) pipe fitting computer programs..

Marked with a silver pencil, it was child's play to grind the required fish mouth forms for even multiple member junctions. As I did both fitting and welding, I can attest that the fits were more than "good enough" By the time you have the metal cleaned up and relieved even a little. Filling any wows was nothing to get excited about. coupons passed every time!

And talk about FAST! No cleaning the cutting oils! The workpiece goes right from the grind wheel to the jig for test fitting without "carryover" of any contaminants. SWEET!

Just remember, Since you are Mini Baja, I never told you about this, And NorthEastern is gonna beat your butts BAD!

NB
My eldest son is a NU grad who had a great experience with the SAE Mini Baja Program. Now he is a high paid engineer for a robotics firm in the big city! I'm proud!

And NU is still gonna beat your butts!

nerdyrcdriver said:

Not sure if this is the best forum section for this thread, but it didn't seem to fit into the fabrication section much better.

I am on a college SAE Baja team. We do a lot of pipe notching making our frame.We would like to do it in a more efficient and safer way.

Our current method is to clamp each member in the vise on the mill and then feed the quill down by hand using what I can best describe as a ball nose insert endmill. I can't find anything like it online, but I will post pics when I can. This generally leads to acceptable results but is very time consuming for anything besides 90 degree joints. Plus there is a ton of chatter no matter what speed it is done at (expected when plunge cutting with an endmill). I don't feel comfortable pawning this task off on most people because our quill doesn't have a return spring so it will just fall if you don't lock it down tight. Which could lead to personal injury and equipment damage.

Some of the more complicated joints are just done by hand with an angle grinder and precision guess work.

We have looked at products like the notchmaster and eastwood pipe notcher, but just don't know if they will hold up. Hole saws don't get along with our 4130 thin wall chromoly very well.

Unfortunately we have almost no money to work with and the best we could get out of either of those companies for sponsorship was 10% off.

What other options are out there on a budget? Are there any companies that are worth reaching out to for potential sponsorships? We don't need the latest and greatest shiny machine. Most of our equipment is from the 60s-90s and still running strong (with the expected backlash and scars from student misuse).

Click to expand...

Sponsers?

First, Get some gals on your team that are more than just talking heads! A team needs admin, and the gals seem to shine there! plus, they add "diversity". get some, they can be fun! (oh, no disrespect if you are already there!)

Then. Don't expect anything from your materials suppliers. Look out and beyond, where the "media" might lead. Bose was a major contributor to the NU team, they still may be. Get it. Technology, but not "tools and machinery" companies. Chicago should be rich! And advertising is a write off for big business. A splashy logo on the side of your trailer can bring in major funds!
Heck, my son's team went from "floundering", to a major student presence that caught the eye of the dean in just three years!
Self promotion is part of the education!

eta

Does your University have a Co-Op program? If so, hit up ALL the companies that bring on student co-ops. They see what fine things such participation can offer!.

This things are pretty handy for getting the joints just right. They make it so you can easily cut the tube with an angle grinder.

Pipemaster Contour Gauges, Round Tubing & PIPE Sizes



I use a Baileigh TN-250 notcher all the time. It is a hole saw type. I have used it on EMT, sch 40 pipe, and 1/8" wall 6063 Al. Not exactly an item for those with limited funds.

I have a two speed Milwaukee Hole Hawg drill I use on the notcher. 1200rpm for aluminum and 300 rpm for steel works well.

No disrespect Fabworks, but hole saws are the slowest, messiest, costliest most messy way of notching pipe that was ever imagined.

Whoever thought of the idea should be keel hauled!

Did I mention hole saws are messy!?

Oh! Add the 4130 factor and holes saw expenses run "up there".

Move along, nothing to be seen here!

CalG said:

No disrespect Fabworks, but hole saws are the slowest, messiest, costliest most messy way of notching pipe that was ever imagined.

Whoever thought of the idea should be keel hauled!

Did I mention hole saws are messy!?

Oh! Add the 4130 factor and holes saw expenses run "up there".

Move along, nothing to be seen here!

Click to expand...

Also no disrespect Cal, but i completely disagree with the slowest/costliest part, Messy maybe.

I have a mill and lathe and my Notchmaster is far faster to use. The set up time on the notch master is super quick and my Milwaukee ICE holes saws are usually good for 100 notches of 1.75" .120 wall DOM @10$ a pop and that's with no lube. We stopped using lube because of the mess and it was a minimal notice in the life of the saw. I know a few guys that have tool trucks stop at their shops regularly and they buy hole saws off them and get them warrantied regularly.

CalG said:

No disrespect Fabworks, but hole saws are the slowest, messiest, costliest most messy way of notching pipe that was ever imagined.

Whoever thought of the idea should be keel hauled!

Did I mention hole saws are messy!?

Oh! Add the 4130 factor and holes saw expenses run "up there".

Move along, nothing to be seen here!

Click to expand...

Well, not all of us have $6000 to buy one of these.

Fabworks said:

Well, not all of us have $6000 to buy one of these.

View attachment 207478

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See post #5!

Way less than $6K!

;-)

A Baldore 8 inch bench grinder with a 1 inch wheel on one end, and a 3/4 inch wheel on the other is less than $500. depending...

Not messy at all. And fairly fast. This is in 1-1/2" 316 stainless pipe.

Fein and maybe some others have tube notcher attachments to belt grinder:
3" GRIT(R) Belt Grinder Pipe Notcher GRIT(R) (Fein) GI 75 2H - YouTube

Mud's roughing endmill sounds like good idea tho.

For 1" its not realy worth it, but on larger sizes, a simple template and free hand with a plasma cutter really reduces grinding time a lot.

My Formula SAE experience for 15 years ago mirrors what the OP is describing.

If you have your chassis model in Solidworks, like you should, you can create template wraps from paper. Cut with scissors to profile, stick to tube, grind accordingly.

Or ramp up the fundraising game and send all of your tubing needs out to a tube laser vendor and get back perfect parts. That's probably more applicable for the real world and would hopefully score you points on your manufacturing and cost reports. No way would a little shop be making money making mini Bajas if they were notching tubing by hand...!

Mud is spot on.
a roughing endmill of the proper diameter makes short work of a notching job. Hole saws suck. I have used this method for 20+ years, and it is quick, easy, and clean (no coolant required). I used a cheap import mill for notching for 15 of those years, and now have a Bridgeport, but I also have Southbend lathe, and I like the looks of the v-block on the carriage. Mittler Bros. makes nice stuff, but I can't afford it, either!

Wire EDM...no chatter no chips just smoooooooothe curves

I use a Yuasa angle vise with v-block, end mills on a Bport most of the time.
David

I used a universal horizontal mill and roughing cutter on my sons go-kart engine swap. If I had a lot of tubes, I'd make a split fixture and key/bolt it right to the table. Use an impact to tighten & loosen tubes and power feed. No universal, angle table key to the tube hole.