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Read before you by A FLOW waterjet

xcflyn

Plastic
Joined
Mar 31, 2012
Location
Colorado
Let me start out by saying that I do not search out ways to slam a company, over the last 30+ years I learned to be patient and treat challenges as challenges and try to learn and become smarter from them. About 4 months ago we got our new Flow waterjet , replacing our 20+ year old KMT/Ingersol machine with its out dated drives and software. Lets say I learned a lot from that purchase and I certainly don't feel any smarter, just more foolish as my down time days keep accumulating and the lost dollars keep stacking up. In receiving the machine the first problem was we had a machine in place that we were selling: that took a while and eventually flow said your taking this on this day (about a 5 day lead time). We had our old machine under contract so I scrambled to get the old one ready to remove so the new one could come into the building. We have a lot of space constraints so I had to plan accordingly. 4 days and ticking I call Flow and ask if we can delay for 2 days , they said no, you can call and tell the driver to drive slower but your taking it and your installer will be there that next Monday. 3 days and ticking - next day pull in the parking lot 6am, there's the truck two days early waiting to get unloaded. So Flows scheduling sucks, small hurdle , I can clear it, and I do. Monday comes, no installer, call flow, they have no clue. Mid day Monday I am chasing as we need to get running, we lost two days we needed for building ahead and need production. Flow says, ya we screwed up and forgot to schedule you a installer : WHAT ? You told me a week ago he was already scheduled: EEERRRRR !!!!
Next week , installer comes and is pretty unskilled. I have built and installed literally miles of machinery in my day, I know good from bad, I am being kind if I say he SUCKED ! Told me the machine was level, I argued as I checked it when he was out hitting the local dispensary at lunch ( Colorado-legal weed). After proving it was out he told me level was + or - .200 ; I shit you not that is what he said. I was like - no you are dyslexic maybe .002 but not .200. I explained with a tape measure that that is a variable of over 3/8" - terms I felt maybe he could understand. Nope guess not. He sees the machine fire up and run some parts, leaves to go hiking before his early flight out. We didn't make 10 parts that day due to drive faults, ghost faults, head hitting the material due to tank out of level. THANK YOU FLOW ! So now we are down for faults , Week goes by and we are the only penis in the circle jerk and my head is hurting. We are told its water supply issues and getting multiple things to try on our new machine that is sitting in the corner while we start farming out our work. THANKS FLOW . We invest $15K plus down time into water and pre-pump solutions and spend the next week down until installer #2 comes out and has to re-install our system and trouble shoot the problems. BTW- the 15K problem was a wiring issue from the factory, I think it was their janitor that figured that out. Installer 2 leaves we try to limp along but eventually give up and just shut down. Loosing money we are now watching weeks go by , flow never returns calls and really can not give two shits that we are down and sending our work out. I think this is where I again say - THANK YOU FLOW. My fingers are starting to hurt and I am not even into month two of our problems yet. Let me cut this short and say we are in month 4 , down again for electrical problems and they don't give one . two.. or three... shits that we purchased a machine that is still not running. I have requested they refund our money and get this POS off my shop floor 3 times now. It seems that they will not even return a call without me chasing with emails and calling over and over. FLOW waterjets and Flow as a company are horrible. I am at the point of legal action now, I tried to avoid it but I have no choice. Our loss's will soon exceed the cost of the machine. Our 20 year old machine with thousands and thousands of hours was better and more reliable than this new one. That's the sad truth. People you can say what you want and stand up and shout "FLOW is the best", but if you do, you must be on the flow gravy train payroll cuz flow sucks ! Don't believe me ask their techs , they will tell you all they do is deal with pissed off customers. The best customers are the ones getting the install because they don't know what a shit show they are entering into.
Maybe today I will get a new control box that they want me to install - can you say sweet warrantee ? 4 months not even 100 hours on the machine, most of which were not cutting but trouble shooting and we need to install our replacement electronics. Which machinist or welder should I pull off their job to do that as I am sure they are all electricians or have the correct training to do wire a panel on a waterjet.
Two things I will suggest - OMAX & KMT , save yourself a lot of pain !
BTW if I seem a little salty ??? I am and I bet not one person at flow gives a half a turd about it.
 
Let me start out by saying that I do not search out ways to slam a company, over the last 30+ years I learned to be patient and treat challenges as challenges and try to learn and become smarter from them. About 4 months ago we got our new Flow waterjet , replacing our 20+ year old KMT/Ingersol machine with its out dated drives and software. Lets say I learned a lot from that purchase and I certainly don't feel any smarter, just more foolish as my down time days keep accumulating and the lost dollars keep stacking up. In receiving the machine the first problem was we had a machine in place that we were selling: that took a while and eventually flow said your taking this on this day (about a 5 day lead time). We had our old machine under contract so I scrambled to get the old one ready to remove so the new one could come into the building. We have a lot of space constraints so I had to plan accordingly. 4 days and ticking I call Flow and ask if we can delay for 2 days , they said no, you can call and tell the driver to drive slower but your taking it and your installer will be there that next Monday. 3 days and ticking - next day pull in the parking lot 6am, there's the truck two days early waiting to get unloaded. So Flows scheduling sucks, small hurdle , I can clear it, and I do. Monday comes, no installer, call flow, they have no clue. Mid day Monday I am chasing as we need to get running, we lost two days we needed for building ahead and need production. Flow says, ya we screwed up and forgot to schedule you a installer : WHAT ? You told me a week ago he was already scheduled: EEERRRRR !!!!
Next week , installer comes and is pretty unskilled. I have built and installed literally miles of machinery in my day, I know good from bad, I am being kind if I say he SUCKED ! Told me the machine was level, I argued as I checked it when he was out hitting the local dispensary at lunch ( Colorado-legal weed). After proving it was out he told me level was + or - .200 ; I shit you not that is what he said. I was like - no you are dyslexic maybe .002 but not .200. I explained with a tape measure that that is a variable of over 3/8" - terms I felt maybe he could understand. Nope guess not. He sees the machine fire up and run some parts, leaves to go hiking before his early flight out. We didn't make 10 parts that day due to drive faults, ghost faults, head hitting the material due to tank out of level. THANK YOU FLOW ! So now we are down for faults , Week goes by and we are the only penis in the circle jerk and my head is hurting. We are told its water supply issues and getting multiple things to try on our new machine that is sitting in the corner while we start farming out our work. THANKS FLOW . We invest $15K plus down time into water and pre-pump solutions and spend the next week down until installer #2 comes out and has to re-install our system and trouble shoot the problems. BTW- the 15K problem was a wiring issue from the factory, I think it was their janitor that figured that out. Installer 2 leaves we try to limp along but eventually give up and just shut down. Loosing money we are now watching weeks go by , flow never returns calls and really can not give two shits that we are down and sending our work out. I think this is where I again say - THANK YOU FLOW. My fingers are starting to hurt and I am not even into month two of our problems yet. Let me cut this short and say we are in month 4 , down again for electrical problems and they don't give one . two.. or three... shits that we purchased a machine that is still not running. I have requested they refund our money and get this POS off my shop floor 3 times now. It seems that they will not even return a call without me chasing with emails and calling over and over. FLOW waterjets and Flow as a company are horrible. I am at the point of legal action now, I tried to avoid it but I have no choice. Our loss's will soon exceed the cost of the machine. Our 20 year old machine with thousands and thousands of hours was better and more reliable than this new one. That's the sad truth. People you can say what you want and stand up and shout "FLOW is the best", but if you do, you must be on the flow gravy train payroll cuz flow sucks ! Don't believe me ask their techs , they will tell you all they do is deal with pissed off customers. The best customers are the ones getting the install because they don't know what a shit show they are entering into.
Maybe today I will get a new control box that they want me to install - can you say sweet warrantee ? 4 months not even 100 hours on the machine, most of which were not cutting but trouble shooting and we need to install our replacement electronics. Which machinist or welder should I pull off their job to do that as I am sure they are all electricians or have the correct training to do wire a panel on a waterjet.
Two things I will suggest - OMAX & KMT , save yourself a lot of pain !
BTW if I seem a little salty ??? I am and I bet not one person at flow gives a half a turd about it.

Sounds like you need to get an Omax, my friend has 2 and all they do is work great and all he has to do is put money in the bank.
 
I like the slats in the table - they will last forever at this rate- nice and smooth, no sharp edges from heavy usage. I love when we get replacement parts: we all laugh at the side of the box where it says "service matters" the guys on the floor take photos of each other holding the box standing next to our not running machine. They do have a sense of humor at flow and they certainly will have the last laugh !
Don't get me started on the crappy software . Bob cad is better for a post process and that aint saying much ! As a pimp for Bob Cad, they do take care of us, may not be the best software but they try !
In all honesty I do not have anything super to say about flow. Nothing has impressed me and most every thing has disappointed.
 
While we have not had the problems you are experiencing I am far from impressed with our Flow.

... not a big fan of Omax either.

It's been a couple of years since I ran waterjets now, but I don't think there's been any real improvement.

Our original Ingersoll, Windows 3.1 base, plotter drive, belt driven machines cut as well as the Flows and Jets that we have now.

And they were a lot more "user friendly".

They didn't have the taper capability of the Flow, but we rarely use that, and it only works half the time then.

Intensifier times between maintenance aren't any better either.
 
that'd be a lot easier to read with a few more paragraphs and line breaks after each. I confess the mountain looked too high, just couldn't do it
 
You have used a water jet for that long and you bought a flow? They caused 2 weeks of downtime at a MFG here and couldn't figure out the mixing valve wasn't installed :willy_nilly:
 
Sorry to hear of your problems. I would think your sales contact would be your best advocate. If they want to sell you another machine in the future, they should be inclined to push service to get any issues fixed.

I think the .2" spec is for the water tub. After this is within .2", you would then adjust the slats within the tub further.
 
I've got to ask - how did you (or whoever) make the decisions to purchase a Flow in the first place? What sold you on them?

The company that is now doing all our work for us now that we don't have a running water jet anymore - makes a guy think doesn't it ? of course they do have a flow.
 
I believe any waterjet or machine companies have their issues. I have had numerous machines installed and a lot of it starts with the installer. Unfortunately, it doesn't sound like you had a great one. While .200" may be tolerance for water tub, .002" would be less problematic and save in leveling other components. I've had my fair share fighting with installers over their perceived tolerances and my own. Long story short, we just received our H2Ojet pump to replace 2 of Omax direct drive(into the dirt)pumps. Being replaced after installing a 60ksi gauge inline and seeing -20/+20ksi pressure spikes during on/off cycle. This after we installed upgraded control box. After spending an absorbent amount on replacement fittings and tubing over our first year. Omax machines are good for long cuts. Small parts, high cycle counts they are pure trash.
I do like Omax software though. Very easy to work with imo. Hence new pumps / not machine. Also the intensifier style pumps are much easier to maintain and require less down time if you have a back up intensifier.
My 2c.
 
Seems like everyone and his dog builds a water jet in China ... even if they don't work any better, they must cost less :)

(They must work somewhat, I see them cutting metal at shows. And they don't have 4 months to get it running for a show ... )
 
Long story short, we just received our H2Ojet pump to replace 2 of Omax direct drive(into the dirt)pumps. Being replaced after installing a 60ksi gauge inline and seeing -20/+20ksi pressure spikes during on/off cycle.

Can you just fit a pressure relief valve? Simple T fitting and so long as you go for a big enough one its hard to imagine how its ever going to wear out as presumably its only gotta vent a small squirt to cap things at 60K psi? hell rolling your own would not exactly be hard, its only 30 tons holding a square inch of cross-sectional ball on a solid metal valve seat. Drop it to a 1/4" ball and its probaly just a case of using a really hard die spring.

Whilst i have no experience with water jet's or there installs the amount of times i have fixed issues on things others have installed in the print world is unreal. Inadequate power supplies, daisy changed extension leads and just out right shitty alignment can make even a new great machine run like a heap of poo.

Had one customer who had a referbed machine installed earlier this year, the list of faults took 2 days to fix, damn near every install setting was wrong. I go there and he can't get more than 5 books out of it running bellow 500 books a hour, i leave with it completing a run of 5k with only 2 miss feeds at 5K books a hour. Having a truly knowledgeable tech on a new or second hand machine install makes a vast difference to the future profitability of any machine. If your even having to discuss level to 200 thou you need a different tech and more than possibly a different dealer for support.

You know a good tech when he stands there spends a bit of time and actually works out whats really wrong, not a parts plug and play merchant. For what its worth and how your describing it it really sounds way more like you have a tech not a machine issue. The not running for any time is not on any more in this world. Sue there socks off because they damn well deserve it.
 
Can you just fit a pressure relief valve? Simple T fitting and so long as you go for a big enough one its hard to imagine how its ever going to wear out as presumably its only gotta vent a small squirt to cap things at 60K psi? hell rolling your own would not exactly be hard, its only 30 tons holding a square inch of cross-sectional ball on a solid metal valve seat. Drop it to a 1/4" ball and its probaly just a case of using a really hard die spring.

Whilst i have no experience with water jet's or there installs the amount of times i have fixed issues on things others have installed in the print world is unreal. Inadequate power supplies, daisy changed extension leads and just out right shitty alignment can make even a new great machine run like a heap of poo.

Had one customer who had a referbed machine installed earlier this year, the list of faults took 2 days to fix, damn near every install setting was wrong. I go there and he can't get more than 5 books out of it running bellow 500 books a hour, i leave with it completing a run of 5k with only 2 miss feeds at 5K books a hour. Having a truly knowledgeable tech on a new or second hand machine install makes a vast difference to the future profitability of any machine. If your even having to discuss level to 200 thou you need a different tech and more than possibly a different dealer for support.

You know a good tech when he stands there spends a bit of time and actually works out whats really wrong, not a parts plug and play merchant. For what its worth and how your describing it it really sounds way more like you have a tech not a machine issue. The not running for any time is not on any more in this world. Sue there socks off because they damn well deserve it.
Waterjet pumps, lines and, fittings at 45-50ksi( in my particular application w/ Omax pumps) is a different world. Tying to maintain that pressure while synchronizing fluid flow in on/off cycles, requires a lot more than a relief valve. A relief valve would merely cap the pressure in line. Not maintain it. That transient pressure is either going through the cutting head or through a dump valve. The system Omax uses to synchronize and maintain pressure through these cycles is the is the issue. For standard metals cutting and abrasive it may not make a huge difference at <45ksi, but when you are talking about water-only cutting of plastics and acrylics, its a bit different. It requires a very high and consistent pressure to get good results. Part of the reason to go with a 60ksi intensifier style pump. H2Ojet is the industry leading Water-Only cutting specialist..
Omax/Maxiem did start to offer an attenuator of sorts on their newest and most expensive pumps. Also Omax seems to be the only manufacturer utilizing a different valve system. While most manufacturers utilize air to on/open technology, Omax uses a air to off/close system. Safety factor? These pumps pretty much require an entire soft rebuild every time you crack the block on the pump. $875 for any leakage or failure on the pump itself. Aand at these pressures a new manifold is required 90% of the time to the tune of $1200. No diagnosing an individual component and just replacing that component. Every dynamic seal and internal part is to be changed out. The variance of pressure in the lines leads to premature failure of cone and fitting 90's, tee's, and adapters, not to mention plain old line failure or cracks in the high pressure tube. And for the award of ignorantly spending on a slick looking apparatus......... and the award goes to Omax's scissor system. Instead of a single whip, Omaxs' scissor system employs 6 different swivel assemblies that will require maintenance and rebuild as well as, 5 respective lines between them. Replacement part marketing at its finest.
I personally have spent way too much of my time talking to reps and techs from Omax than I really should need to. Could not get one of them to talk about the pressure issues, it was always switching to another topic or another part or upgrade that wasn't going to help.
I will post a thread on the experience with our new H2Ojet pump. It just arrived Thursday and we are moving the table. Hopefully have everything in place by the end of the month. H2Ojet's tech's only job is education and training on pump and logistics of pump working with Omax table and software.
 
Being replaced after installing a 60ksi gauge inline and seeing -20/+20ksi pressure spikes during on/off cycle.

I know you have already committed to the intensifier, but did anyone check to make sure that the air lines going to the nozzle and dump valves are the correct length? IIRC, they make the length of this tubing the same (or at least some specific length) so that the latency of operating these valves is known to the degree that they can properly time the hand-off from nozzle to dump valve and vice-versa.
 








 
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