I'd like some experienced opinions please....

The subject is training new welders.

Let's say a company had a large pool of employees. From this group, they want to send 15 of them to welder training.

The goal is to certify these 15 people to AWS standards for heavy construction welding with a double-bevel groove test (with backing strip) on 3/8" plate in two weld processes...SMAW (1/8" 7018) and FCAW. They must pass vertical, horizontal, and overhead tests with each process (successful root and face bends on sample coupons).

They will be trained five days a week (M-F) for seven hours, for ten weeks.

The class will consist of people ranging in age from 20's to 60's, both male and female.

The students will be chosen by having an outside company analyze samples of their handwriting...and that's it...they will not be interviewed to determine if they have any interest in becoming a welder.

The students basically have no say in whether they want to be welders or not...they will simply be told that for the next ten weeks, they will be going to weld school.

Oh yeah...I forgot...most of them can't read a tape measure...don't understand basic math (fractions, decimals, etc.)...and have no knowledge of blue-print reading. When shown a cross-sectional view of a multi-pass fillet weld (to illustrate proper bead placement) they have no clue what they are looking at.

How many do you think will become certified welders in ten weeks with one knowledgeable instructor?

1

Is this a hypothetical question btw? or did they really pick potential welders by hand writing analysis?
I wouldn't have said 3/8 plate was exactly "heavy contruction, get em to run overhead on 1in plates using 6013.. or vertical with 6010 if you really want to see them have coniptions..

Is the FC dual shield or straight spatter wire?

Any bloody fool can run a bead with 7018, I'd bet my 10yo daughter could probably do it... She's already handy with the MM210....

Rick,

Yes, they really picked the 15 candidates by handwriting analysis and the FCAW uses a shielding gas.

PS...get your daughter a little welding jacket for her birthday....

75 to 80. Welding is not rocket science.

Now if they will be of any practical use past the course is a totally different subject.

macona,

Read my original post again.

Only 15 go to welding class.

And remember, we're talking about people who have never welded, never considered being a welder, and don't know how to strike an arc or flip their helmet down.

She actually has a jacket etc. The reason she's dressed like that is she'd finished running beads (see plate next to welpers) & then asked for a quick pic to send to grandma. She just threw the helnmet & gloves on, hit the trigger & I took the pic

75 to 80 percent.

macona,

Are you a welding instructor?

Have you ever taught a group within the parameters that I have laid out?

Just curious...

Nope, but after seeing how many of my customer just pull people off the street and show them how to weld it wouldnt surprise me.

And considering that a decent shop teacher in HS can teach a group of 20 kids in a quarter (9 weeks) how to weld decently at only 45 minutes a day is very possible. Here they are going to be taught 8hrs a day (I assume?)

But then again if people in this class are being shoved into it against their will then the success rate is going to be horrible. People will sabotage their own work either consciously or unconsciously.

Simply put if Mary Jane in the office is told she is now going to be going to weld school she is going to do what she needs to stay in her nice, clean, office job.

Is this really happening or is it hypothetical? Are they pulling from the entire labor pool? No exceptions?

Well lets see. I took a 6month customized welding course. There was about 20 or 22 of us. In order to get into the course we were required to have at least touched it once, either playing in the garage or whatever. Some guys, like me had a bit more experience with it. I had a few years into machining then and had been playing with Tig and stick welding a bit. There were a few that didn't know how to use a measuring tape, didn't show up everyday, etc.

Course was 600hours, from about 7am to 1pm Monday to Friday. It was usually about 4-5hours of welding with about an hour of theory after it. So over all it was roughly a 6 month course.

Goal of the course was to pass CWB(canadian welding bureau), SMAW and FCAW on 4 position GF coupons, bend tested. The FCAW uses thicker plate. I don't remember if it was 1/2" or 5/8" thick.

We started on SMAW, 6011, doing flat and different types of practice pieces in all positions. Then same with 7018. After a bit over a month we were starting to do 7018 test plates, just a lot of practicing. About 3months into it some of us started fluxcore, only if our SMAW was passing tests. At month 4 I believe we got tested on SMAW 4 positions. There was only a few of us that passed all 4. I'm not sure howmany, maybe 4. Some got stopped on the vertical plate and not allowed to finish. Many failed 1 or 2 plate on bend test, and I saw at least 1 cheat by flipping the plate.

On the last day of the course we tested on Fluxcore. Results were about the same, not many passed all 4 from what I remember. Many had a hard time again with vertical and overhead. Some didn't get to test fluxcore as they were redoing their SMAW. I got lucky on that day, all my plates looked the exact same. If it wasn't for the stamp we couldn't tell them apart. Inspector was quite surprised, mostly when I said I had no interest in working full time as a welder and that I was just doing this for fun while still working nearly full time.

So to end my story. If you have 15 people that have never touched this at all, and likely don't even want to be there to start with and only 10 weeks. I would be surprised if you had 1 person that could pass all 8 tests to standards and even more surprised if he/she could do it again the next day. Unless you're one amazing teacher and even then there's only so much a person can do.

Although being a double bevel it is easier than GF. Do they have to do 2 stop/starts on those plates? We did a stop/start on each side and did root bends on those. There was a strip in the middle that we did a face bend. If it didn't pass visual it didn't get bent...

Good Luck!

Now, do they have to learn to use Oxy-acetylene and cut their own coupons and prep/grind them and everything else also?

Do they start on coupons from day 1 or do they learn to run rows of beads on plates first?

Without interest, or an aptitude for craftsmanship, I don't think the success rate would be that great. They might be able to run a bead, but turning them into welders...??? The handwriting thing is interesting, but I wonder if it's relevant. I've seen people with terribly scrawly, illegible writing do beautiful craft work.

On the other hand, here's a pic of an oxy/acetylene bead (corner bead with filler)done by an 18 year old on the second day of a welding class, I believe. For scale, the writing is done with a fine point Sharpie.

Not bad!


As far as the fifteen are concerned what happens if all of them hate welding. I would think that in order to get a person to learn they would want someone that is at the least a little bit curios. At best someone who jumps up and yells I want to go take me.


I work for a company that builds heavy equipment the best welders we have are pasionate about their quality. You can tell if a person likes welding real fast. Not everyone can weld no matter how good or bad thier hand writing is.

---A person don't need to be able to read and write to be a welder its an art ----being showen the right tecnec and steady strong arms good eye sit ---and a will to become one ---

you can take a horse to water but you need the use of specil drugs to make it drink

macona,

Yes, this is really happening. And, yes, they chose the 15 from the entire pool of workers. Six of the 15 are women. Two of the women are in their 20's. The other four are in their 40's, 50's, and one is over 60 years of age. The mens range of age is 20's to 50's.

SND,

No, they don't start on coupons from day one. They are taught welding on flat plates first, building up a "pad", then on to multi-pass fillet welds on 3/8" plate, filling a T-joint, in all three positions that they will test on. As soon as they show welding proficiency (able to run a nice straight consistent bead, proper bead placement, no undercut problems, good starts and stops, etc.), they are allowed to start practicing on actual test plates.

They have been trained in the use of an oxy-acetylene cutting torch and have all tried it, but being proficient in it is not a course requirement, per se...the goal of the course is to certify them in these two weld processes.

Their coupons are being bandsaw cut and flame-beveled for them on a burning table (Victor machine on tracks for a nice smooth bevel) by the instructor or one of several students that the instructor trained to do so. The students must metal-finish the bevel and mill scale, slag, etc. from surrounding areas (grind, sand, etc.) and tack together the pieces with the backing strip, to spec, and weld on a strong-back to minimize warpage.

The test weld is 7" long on 3/8" plate. 1" is cut off each end. Then, the next 1 1/2" from each end is cut off and those are the test coupons...one root bend and one face bend after the students remove the backing strip and metal-finish both sides of the coupon...without making it too thin by grinding out undercut, etc.

1/64" depth of undercut is allowable...2" max on the entire piece. Fit-up of plates to backing strip must be tight.

Ever seen someone who has never used a hand-held grinder or done simple lay-out work before try to do this? For some, it's harder than the welding...

Welder, I'd really like to hear more about the logic behind this writing test. I'd also like to hear more about the conditions --- did the employer tell these people "learn to weld or don't let the door hit your a$$ on the way out?"

Also, are you teaching, or are you employed by the company in question?

Sounds a bit to me like when Nova picked a bunch of people who had never exercised, in order to see if they could get them in shape to run the Boston Marathon within a few months. Although surprisingly only 1 didn't make it because of bone problems.

Little lab rat experiment maybe??
Do they expect these people to work as welders after this?

OK, I will retract my earlier statement. You will be lucky if anyone passes.

I just can understand why they would do something like this? How do the other welders at the company feel about this? eems like the company is trying to prove the welders are "a dime a dozen"

are you writing a science fiction book by chance?
your selection critiria seems somewhat strange, we used to define welders [ tounge in cheek ] as fitters with thier brains knocked out but this would appear a ludicrus methodology that smacks of taylors experiments at bethlehems steelplant and the bell labs.
methinks welders deserve a little respect too, lets face it if they were all muppets there would be power stations blowing up, bridges falling down and god knows what else, try producing a perfect, slag free, inclusion free weld when freezing cold, standing up to your knees in icy water, it aint easy.
its be kind to welders week
regards
mark
[ex pipewelder, metallurgist and softy]

Hi Racer Al,

The handwriting analysis makes no sense to me either. I don't believe that you can determine welding aptitude by a persons handwriting...but, this is how this group was picked.

As far as I know, any of these people who don't become certified welders will be given other assignments and it will have no effect on their employment status.

Hi SND,

Yes, they expect these people (the ones who certify anyway) to work as welders for an undetermined length of time.

Hi macona,

I'm not sure how the "real" welders on the job feel about it.

Why are they doing this? Well, my understanding is that the corporate culture of this company promotes the belief that anybody can do anything if they have the desire and ambition to do so.

Hi boslab,

No, this is not science fiction...it's real and happening right now.