Waterjet shopping: Flow Mach500 v Omax 80X

We're looking to replace our lone waterjet, a 60ksi Flow IFB Dynamic Waterjet. After a lot of looking around, I'd appreciate any input y'all may have.

We don't do a lot of light-gauge stuff, but do have some 22-16ga stainless work that gets bent and welded. We do some 16-11ga carbin steel stuff. Other than that, it's typically 3/8" thk and higher, with the thicker end being around 2-1/2" aluminum and the occasional 6 or 8" thk aluminum plate. The big stuff is usually just cutting out blanks to throw into a large mill fixture, not making finished parts. I'd say the mix of "cutting blanks" vs "making finished parts" is 50/50 give or take.

That said, everyone (including me) who has to work on that Flow we have right now: hates it. It's a maintenance PITA, but it may also be things brought on by ourselves over the years.

My main concerns are accuracy, and maintenance TIME. In order of priority, I would say:

1) Downtime for maintenance
2) Time required doing preventive maintenance even though machine is running (our waterjet operator is also our welder and general fabricator. Rather have him doing paying work than not, and our maintenance guy is sometimes busy with other machines)
3) Linear & Positional accuracy & repeatability.
and
4) The easier it is to teach other people in the future, the better, but I expect that's basically a wash among any waterjet machines.

We don't really do high qty production, other than intermittent jobs, making blanks for bigger vertical mills.

Does anyone have any experience with these models or at least input between makers? All we have experience with is Flow, but I've heard lots of great things of Omax.

Oh, and taper compensation is a must, and it's already been in our quotes.
In the end, the total machine costs are w/in 15% of eachother which isn't going to be a sole-decider.

I can only comment on OMAX machines. They have first class customer service. You can talk to someone in tech support 7days/week.

Their pump is easy to work on and from what I have read and witnessed first on intensifier pumps I would not even consider anything but a "direct-drive" pump.... Correct me if I'm wrong but OMAX is the only company using this style of pump. The other players are using intensifier pump.

J, which brand is the 15% higher machine?

Good luck,

Tom

TFPace said:

I can only comment on OMAX machines. They have first class customer service. You can talk to someone in tech support 7days/week.

Their pump is easy to work on and from what I have read and witnessed first on intensifier pumps I would not even consider anything but a "direct-drive" pump.... Correct me if I'm wrong but OMAX is the only company using this style of pump. The other players are using intensifier pump.

J, which brand is the 15% higher machine?

Good luck,

Tom

Click to expand...

The Omax is higher but after the reading I've done on the direct-drive pump, I am really leaning hard that way, as well, when it comes to pump-preference. I'm about sick of working on the intensifiers and watching others working on them so often. I am doing my best to remain objective in this, despite my experience, though.

JNieman said:

The Omax is higher but after the reading I've done on the direct-drive pump, I am really leaning hard that way, as well, when it comes to pump-preference. I'm about sick of working on the intensifiers and watching others working on them so often. I am doing my best to remain objective in this, despite my experience, though.

Click to expand...

The machine is very impressive. You'll be amazed at OMAX's production facility. They believe in vertical integration. Their software is impressive too. I can't compare it to Flow's.
The headaches with intensifier pumps helps sell a lot of OMAX machines IMO

I've been talking with our fab guy and maintenance tech and both seem to have liked "the idea" of a direct drive pump, but I kinda weigh their (and my) reaction against the bad taste we have with this Flow IFB. I'm happy to step away from running the jet now that we have a good fab guy. It's just that the Flow has plagued us with unexpected down time, maintenance nightmares, and surprises every step of the way. Seems like we can't go a week without interruptions, even including normal PM on intensifiers. We have two complete intensifiers so that we can swap them frequently enough without much down time. Still seems like something always goes wrong. Only at ~4100 hours on the machine, too.

Out of curiosity have you looked at Wardjet? IMO their machines and customer support are top notch. They use Hypertherm pumps and cutting heads along with their own designed parts. I know that Hypertherm has the lowest cost of consumables on the market. I have a KMT intensifier myself but the Hypertherm design is similar. We have our own issues with maintenance on the pumps but after setting up a chiller and water filtration system we are getting much better life on our seals.

Cisco92 said:

Out of curiosity have you looked at Wardjet? IMO their machines and customer support are top notch. They use Hypertherm pumps and cutting heads along with their own designed parts. I know that Hypertherm has the lowest cost of consumables on the market. I have a KMT intensifier myself but the Hypertherm design is similar. We have our own issues with maintenance on the pumps but after setting up a chiller and water filtration system we are getting much better life on our seals.

Click to expand...

Cisco92,

Did KMT sell you a system without a chiller?

For Hypertherm to buy Accustream and enter the waterjet market says something doesn't it ?

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

Actually bought my machine used without much training and have learned the hard way on how to care for it properly. Expensive lesson to say the least.

Cisco92 said:

Actually bought my machine used without much training and have learned the hard way on how to care for it properly. Expensive lesson to say the least.

Click to expand...

How's the saying go about there's no such thing as free education .



Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

I like the OMAX direct drive pumps. I only know OMAX/Maxiem - I operated a 55100 for 3 years and then bought a Maxiem in 2010. Fatigue from on/off cycles is a big issue with machines that run at higher pressure like 90KSI for Flow, and esp. an issue for folks like us who cut mostly sheet metal and put hundreds of thousands of cycles on the machine.

For a different perspective, I decided early on to run at 45K to cut down on fatigue related failure and maintenance. That makes us more expensive for long cut jobs in thick material but that doesn't seem to hurt our business. We have a minor plumbing failure e.g. a split pipe somewhere about once every 6 months. The pump has 5500 hours at high pressure since new. We haven't had the wet end apart in over 3 years for even minor maintenance. Every component of the pump wet end is far beyond its overhaul/replacement point but we'll just run it til it leaks unacceptably and then buy a complete new wet end for $8000. We use OMAX's integrated diamond nozzles and get a clean perfect jet and about 2000 hours per orifice. Again not typical of a shop running at 60K or higher but it makes life easy for us.

I like almost everything about the Maxiem - its low price point makes the numbers work better for our kind of business. I can see why a shop doing heavy work would want an 80X or other industrial machine with the heavier construction, protected ways, 5 axis motion for taper & drift compensation and a terrain follower :-)

Water quality is big. If you have water with metal salts or otherwise reactive, and don't treat it per mfg recs, any mfgr's pump maintenance may be 10X the same machine in a shop with ideal water chemistry. If you run a direct drive pump and don't keep the on/off valves maintained and balanced to minimize the on/off spikes, you can expect more fatigue failures.

JNieman said:

The Omax is higher but after the reading I've done on the direct-drive pump, I am really leaning hard that way, as well, when it comes to pump-preference. I'm about sick of working on the intensifiers and watching others working on them so often. I am doing my best to remain objective in this, despite my experience, though.

Click to expand...

Flow has direct drive pumps as well. The latest version they call Hyplex Prime. The Flow direct drive are the only pumps I have experience with so I cannot provide comparison.

The 15% price differential is interesting. Last time we priced new machines Omax was substantially more expensive. It's been a few years so my memory may not be perfect, but I want to say that Omax's quote was double the price that Flow quoted.

I am a well known Omax fanboy and have no experience with Flow and we are an R&D facility so cutting speed isn't important. So I have nothing to add to the OPs question. Having said that I have heard that the Omax software is relatively really good for very quickly getting parts from DXF to actually cutting. The owner of one of the big shops in town here described doing careful due diligence by visiting all the main manufacturers and finding out there was a dramatic difference. This is really important for shops like ours as we cut one or two of many parts, and it's that much easier to use the waterjet to support other operations like making fixtures, when you can design and cut in minutes. The due diligence story was some years ago and maybe other manufacturers' software has improved. Does anyone have recent experience with getting from DXF to part on recent machines?

N.B. We didn't do due diligence as we just followed Dan Gelbart's advice on which machine to buy. I am also a well known Dan Gelbart fan!

robert123 said:

Flow has direct drive pumps as well. The latest version they call Hyplex Prime. The Flow direct drive are the only pumps I have experience with so I cannot provide comparison.

The 15% price differential is interesting. Last time we priced new machines Omax was substantially more expensive. It's been a few years so my memory may not be perfect, but I want to say that Omax's quote was double the price that Flow quoted.

Click to expand...

I checked back on the prices. Comparable system, ~6'x13' it was actually closer to 20% higher on the Omax. Certainly not double, though.

Hyplex Prime changes everything, though. I will have to look into that. I'm more interested in the technology difference than brand name. Thank you. No one our buyer talked to seemed to even bring up the Hyplex Drive. Any experience or even second-hand info/judgment on it? Thank you!

rcoope said:

I am a well known Omax fanboy and have no experience with Flow and we are an R&D facility so cutting speed isn't important. So I have nothing to add to the OPs question. Having said that I have heard that the Omax software is relatively really good for very quickly getting parts from DXF to actually cutting. The owner of one of the big shops in town here described doing careful due diligence by visiting all the main manufacturers and finding out there was a dramatic difference. This is really important for shops like ours as we cut one or two of many parts, and it's that much easier to use the waterjet to support other operations like making fixtures, when you can design and cut in minutes. The due diligence story was some years ago and maybe other manufacturers' software has improved. Does anyone have recent experience with getting from DXF to part on recent machines?

N.B. We didn't do due diligence as we just followed Dan Gelbart's advice on which machine to buy. I am also a well known Dan Gelbart fan!

Click to expand...

rcoope,

OMAX has a feature in their software for opening other DXF files "import from other CAD" as its called works nicely for opening all types of files.

i use and fix a techni water jet they are made in australia with KMT main parts they are messy machines and pumps go through seals and valves quite a lot.
i think 3 months for seals and valves happen at odd times.
inlet valves you have to grind and lap yourself or your up for costly parts.

outlet are just simple parts, there is also a diamond orifice to replace and carbide nozzles on a regular basis.

check to see if KMT makes parts for your other makes then it just comes down to ease of use, table spec really. best to test use different types the maintenance will be costly if you have to pay someone to come out to fix things learn it and do it yourself will be the most cost effective. hard to know maintenance aspect cost just looking around


all files are dxf import

JNieman said:

I checked back on the prices. Comparable system, ~6'x13' it was actually closer to 20% higher on the Omax. Certainly not double, though.

Hyplex Prime changes everything, though. I will have to look into that. I'm more interested in the technology difference than brand name. Thank you. No one our buyer talked to seemed to even bring up the Hyplex Drive. Any experience or even second-hand info/judgment on it? Thank you!

Click to expand...

I've been running a hyplex prime for a few years, so I can probably answer at least some of your questions.

I do get the feeling they don't sell too many, since the techs I talk to aren't as familiar (they ARE helpful, just typically need to reference a schematic or physically look at one they have at their facility so we're seeing the same thing).

I've never worked on an intensifier so I have no way to compare them, but my understanding is you have to get the intensifier if you want over 60kpsi.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

alexhawker said:

I've never worked on an intensifier so I have no way to compare them, but my understanding is you have to get the intensifier if you want over 60kpsi.

Click to expand...

That is correct, but I don't think we want/need 94k over 60ksi. I don't see that the benefits are anything we'd care about, and I would be more concerned about the increased maintenance frequency / part-life reduction.

I have a voicemail from our Flow tech who was checking up on us, and plan to ask him about their Hyplex Drive while he's on the phone. He's always been plenty helpful.

My WardJet is only a 2 axis CNC with auto Z-height control (an option I would never be without now that I've used it), but they have two options for taper compensation. The 5 axis TC-8 with up to 60 degree and the Infini Winder with up to 90 degree rotation. They are really worth a look.

I use Hypertherm/Accustream DiaLine cutting heads and their rebuild parts for my intensifier rebuilds. I had a customer owned Accustream intensifier pump for about a year in my shop that I really liked. I don't think you can go wrong with them.

Just by happenstance I was at a seminar hosted by TechShop in St Louis yesterday, and their Flow waterjet ran off a Hyplex pump. I took many pictures and spoke with the bright lady giving tours, but other than impressions on replacing consumables and frequency of repairs (which sounded much better than we get) Flow sends out techs for repairs and some PM so I wasn't able to get good info. She directed me to another TechShop employee for more info but I wasn't able to find him before I ran out of 'free time'.

rcoope said:

Does anyone have recent experience with getting from DXF to part on recent machines?

Click to expand...

The WardJet WardCAM software pulls .dxf files directly and allows disabling/blanking layer and some basic drawing and editing tools (arraying, copy, trim, line, circle, etc.). Lead-ins and outs plus all tabbing is configurable automatically added to the geometry. I can program a whole sheet of nested parts in about 3 clicks and 10 seconds. Material database and cut time estimate is dead on which is nice for generating a quick quote for the customer.