Welding question - think vs. thicker wall steel tubing - Page 2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ciszewski View Post
    Hello Adama
    By chance, did you get your welding processes mixed up? Are you thinking of stick welding & not MIG?

    Attachment 218586

    Certainly not the 0.065 material that the OP is talking about, but just using this pic for a reference. How much time do you think that I had to spend with the grinder & de-splattering here???
    ZERO.
    well, it actually looks like you DID do a bit of grinding there yourself..

    and not any welds I would be particularly proud of either, not terrible, just saying'..

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    Is this what you refer to as a "beehive" welder :
    Interesting 3ph Lincoln dynamotor/welder contraption.

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    If you're getting more heat input with TIG than MIG in the same weldment and base material, you're not running hot enough and not moving fast enough. TIG is capable of putting much less heat into parts than MIG in comparable situations - that is why it is (generally) the preferred method for HAZ-cracking, warpage, and oxidation-sensitive materials.

    Though I'm now expecting someone here has pictures of MIG welded razor blades or soda (or "malt soda") cans?

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    Quote Originally Posted by digger doug View Post
    Is this what you refer to as a "beehive" welder :
    Interesting 3ph Lincoln dynamotor/welder contraption.
    Yes..that's the culprit.

    Stuart

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ciszewski View Post
    Hello Adama
    By chance, did you get your welding processes mixed up? Are you thinking of stick welding & not MIG?

    Attachment 218586

    Certainly not the 0.065 material that the OP is talking about, but just using this pic for a reference. How much time do you think that I had to spend with the grinder & de-splattering here???
    ZERO.
    No disrespect here, but my customers come to me because people like you think you can weld and think thats good! My customers, people that pay me to weld don't think that looks good, there customers won't buy the products if the welds looked like that, nough said? That said you have splatter under far better control than i have ever seen, that said thats not as hard to do on hot roolled material, on ERW box, my experiance with mig is its a splatter magnet. Am assuming all 16 guage material will be ERW box section here not hot rolled box section as generally over here you can't get hot rolled at that thickness.

    OP have you considered aluminum for these? Some times works out cheaper overall as you can have zero finishing costs?

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    Just a little side note on the O.P. If all things are close to the same on cost you might consider going with the thicker tube.
    I say this because if it is in a commercial type setting it would save posting a load limit that everyone will try to exceed.
    I do tend to overbuild things. Comes from years of building bridges

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    Easily doable for a competent welder and fitter. If they are scoffing at it, find another shop that knows what they are doing. It's not all that hard using thinner filler on a MIG. You don't even need anything fancy, but tight joints, clean fit up and prep will make or break it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by adama View Post
    No disrespect here, but my customers come to me because people like you think you can weld and think thats good! My customers, people that pay me to weld don't think that looks good, there customers won't buy the products if the welds looked like that, nough said? That said you have splatter under far better control than i have ever seen, that said thats not as hard to do on hot roolled material, on ERW box, my experiance with mig is its a splatter magnet. Am assuming all 16 guage material will be ERW box section here not hot rolled box section as generally over here you can't get hot rolled at that thickness.

    OP have you considered aluminum for these? Some times works out cheaper overall as you can have zero finishing costs?

    yes I found that for some things aluminum was actually cheaper than steel and is came out even lighter
    for building the cart.
    and the TIG welded aluminum looked good

    but you can weld that thin with a MIG just use .023 wire

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    Default Not a problem

    Quote Originally Posted by The Dude View Post
    Hope someone here can answer this. Looking at having a bunch of items made from 2" sq tube steel. The only question is about wall thickness. I want them as light as possible (for good reason). We plan on using 0.065" wall thickness but I got questioned on the "weldability", being told that it would need to be TIG and, therefore, would take a lot longer (suggested to go to 0.120" thk).

    I don't roll over that easily on a recommendation (it was from a small shop), I am confident that 0.065" will be strong enough the design load and any "bashing". Just wondering if the welding is really that much of an issue or is it more that this guy just can't weld MIG on the thinner wall.

    I know that cost of the tubing isn't much of an issue (about $1/foot) but the weight will be a functionality and safety issue (it's a cart that doesn't carry much cargo weight). So, what say the welding experts? Can I expect to pay a lot more for all things being equal except 0.065 vs. 0.120 thickness?

    Thanks,
    The Dude
    If you have control of amperage/voltage and have the right size wire you can easily weld .065 wall tubing with MIG. Don't waste your time with any other process.

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    Hey thanks again all. aluminum would have been an interesting consideration; yes it would have avoided finishing costs. I was actually considering using pipe and fittings (Hollaender stuff) but I just don't think it would have been strong enough.

    Unfortunately, costs are coming back so high (for them anyway) that they are looking at building them from wood. Not my choice, it's being a bit "cheap" but there's only so much influence I have with them.

    Thanks all,
    The Dude

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    Quote Originally Posted by tjr6257 View Post
    If you have control of amperage/voltage and have the right size wire you can easily weld .065 wall tubing with MIG. Don't waste your time with any other process.
    Hello Tjr6257
    X2.
    Thinner (cold rolled) material than that (20 gauge-0.035, 22 gauge-0.029) gets the MIG treatment in the autobody repair industry all day long, day in day out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cyanidekid View Post
    well, it actually looks like you DID do a bit of grinding there yourself..

    and not any welds I would be particularly proud of either, not terrible, just saying'..
    Hello Cyanidekid
    I also did some sawing, drilling, milling, turning, etc. on that project. That particular section required a cap to be welded to the end of the square tube & a flat, even surface all around (no protruding weld bead, after filling in the V), hence the grinding. Grinding would have been required no what the process. You seemed to have missed the point that I was trying to make with that pic. Perhaps I should have cropped it for you, but then the lack off spatter would not be shown.

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    Quote Originally Posted by atomarc View Post
    I stick welded .065 tube for most of my career. It helps if you're over 18 years of age, don't have a cell phone, don't have fishing tackle hanging from your nose, ears and lips and have been schooled in welding, just a wee bit.

    Stuart
    My neighbor has a welding supply company. He used to be a welder, and was telling me about having to hold his breath for 45 seconds while welding jet engine test probes for GE. Apparently this ensured a "stack of mini-dimes" weld appearance. This was TIG, but your posted reminded me of the talent/experience required to do good welding.

    The only point pertinent to the OPs question is just how your square tubing fits together. If you cut 2 inch square tube off square, and want to weld it at a 90° angle to another 2" square piece, you have a significant amount of metal to fill in where the tube edge rounds away from the square edge of the cross member. Tom Lipton pointed out (in his book "Metalworking Sink or Swim") that you can reduce the amount of fill required (and heat input to the part) by using narrower tube as the cross member. That is, welding a 1x2 rectangular tube at right angles to a 2x2 tube means that you are welding the 1x2 to a flat surface. Better fillet, less welding, less heat input, etc. That fill space will be an issue. That said, I'd have to think that MIG would easier to use to fill that in that TIG. But, going back to the fact that really good welders have experience and talent (and I have little of either), the more experienced welder's comments will be more useful.

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    We plan on using 0.065" wall thickness but I got questioned on the "weldability", being told that it would need to be TIG and
    I Mig 14g quite regularly (Hobart Iron man 230) with .030 wire... Even if you have a little experience, .065 shouldn't be a problem. Lower the amperage and keep moving.

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    Default Of course it can be welded

    Quote Originally Posted by The Dude View Post
    Hope someone here can answer this. Looking at having a bunch of items made from 2" sq tube steel. The only question is about wall thickness. I want them as light as possible (for good reason). We plan on using 0.065" wall thickness but I got questioned on the "weldability", being told that it would need to be TIG and, therefore, would take a lot longer (suggested to go to 0.120" thk).

    I don't roll over that easily on a recommendation (it was from a small shop), I am confident that 0.065" will be strong enough the design load and any "bashing". Just wondering if the welding is really that much of an issue or is it more that this guy just can't weld MIG on the thinner wall.

    I know that cost of the tubing isn't much of an issue (about $1/foot) but the weight will be a functionality and safety issue (it's a cart that doesn't carry much cargo weight). So, what say the welding experts? Can I expect to pay a lot more for all things being equal except 0.065 vs. 0.120 thickness?

    Thanks,
    The Dude
    Every cowbell is in that range of thickness and are welded. MIG used every day. A few get TIGed.
    Bells and Blocks - Cowbells and Agogo Bells | Latin Percussion(R)

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    Quote Originally Posted by atomarc View Post
    Yes..that's the culprit.

    Stuart
    A bit off topic, but you brought back some memories -
    Back when I had my old shop, we had a couple of the "beehive" - "fire plug" Lincoln welders - I remember one was rated at 150 amps, and the other was 250 amps. Any time we had a moonlighting pipe fitter come in to do some welding, they all wanted to use the Lincoln MG welders because they could adjust the voltage as well as the current. We also wound up with 6 big Lincoln torpedo machines (the ones the size of a horizontal barrel). The 300 amp machines would run all day and never get warm, and the big 700 amp (?) welder would run an air arc for hours. Great welders, but heavy as they could be, and you either needed a couple of men or a forklift to move them any distance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ciszewski View Post
    Hello Cyanidekid
    I also did some sawing, drilling, milling, turning, etc. on that project. That particular section required a cap to be welded to the end of the square tube & a flat, even surface all around (no protruding weld bead, after filling in the V), hence the grinding. Grinding would have been required no what the process. You seemed to have missed the point that I was trying to make with that pic. Perhaps I should have cropped it for you, but then the lack off spatter would not be shown.
    didn't miss a dam thing! just gonna leave it at that. cheers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Finsta View Post
    If you're getting more heat input with TIG than MIG in the same weldment and base material, you're not running hot enough and not moving fast enough. TIG is capable of putting much less heat into parts than MIG in comparable situations - that is why it is (generally) the preferred method for HAZ-cracking, warpage, and oxidation-sensitive materials.

    Though I'm now expecting someone here has pictures of MIG welded razor blades or soda (or "malt soda") cans?
    Yes this is correct. Much better heat control with tig which means less distortion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 456heinbach View Post
    Yes this is correct. Much better heat control with tig which means less distortion.
    obviously, if wood is being considered, then quality is not the number one factor.
    I have been welding for a living for a long time. I think it will be 40 years this year.
    we would never even consider mig for this- but we dont do any "commodity" level stuff.
    If it aint worth doing right, I dont want to waste my time on it.
    Last carts we did, sort of like this, in a square tube, were custom luggage carts for a fancy hotel somewhere. All the welds were tig, everything was sanded down to 200 grit, no evidence the welds were even there, then the steel was all blackened, then wood and carpet decks were added, with fancy expensive casters. I think those things were around 3 grand each, wholesale, to the decorator, plus crating and shipping halfway across the country.
    Mig welded off the shelf luggage carts are maybe $700, if that, straight from Pakistan.

    So, the answer is, Mig is the right process.
    And
    Tig is the right process.

    Depends on the expectations of the customer.
    and, I have to agree- we get less distortion, cleaner joints, and we do them in the same amount of time, if not faster, Tig as opposed to Mig- but it requires a skilled tig weldor- my guys and gals are usually really really good, and paid accordingly, but that weld in the photo above- well, lets just say it would get you some special coaching at the local welding program at the community college. They wouldnt exactly laugh at you, but they would be giving you some extra one on one time.

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    I love the mig/tig debate... My favorite answer is, Why not both?1210151508b.jpg1210151500c.jpg1210151509.jpg
    Wire fed tig welding is so much more fun than either process on its own. It takes a part or 2 to get it dialed in but then its all gravy. Clamp the torch in a stand and you have an almost automated setup.

    Good mig welding needs a good mig machine. A good mig machine has inductance control. The last I looked into it the lowest end mig that had inductance was a lincoln 210mp. Millers equivalent has an "auto set" feature ...


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