Old Air Compressors - Are They Better?

I am in the market for a larger air compressor.

I try to buy good used equipment. I am leaning towards Champion and IR for the two brands that I like...if you have other suggestions I would to like to hear them.

When I look through the Usenet archives, I find repeated references to how older compressors and their compressors were built better.

Well, are they?

Is it better to buy a new unit today that is likely value engineered versus searching for a 20+ year old compressor like a Champion or an IR
T30 series?

The next question is what should one look for in an used air compressor? What do you look at to size up whether an air compressor is a buy or a dog?

I would guess that any compressor that I will want would likely be 3PH. How would you recommend running a 2-5HP 3PH compressor in a shop with a 100 amp single phase panel? Rotary converter, VFD or replace the compressor motor?

Finally, what do you consider to be a fair price for an used compressor like a IR T30 5hp 80 gallon or a Champion 3hp 60 gallon that is 20
years or older? What percentage of the new price of a comparable compressor would it be?

Thanks for all you can offer.

TMT

Too-Many-Tools

Never too many!!

I just rebuilt an IR 5HP compressor in that series and I feel even as old as it was (came out of a factory use situation) will very well out live me. I believe the IR head alone is about $1500+ new. Very well built Industrial quality.
I'm not familiar with Champions.

P.O.

I have an Ingersol Rand T-30. Love it. Close to 20 years. Use it sand blasting which is high demand. Have broke one reed valve which the factory had a complete replacement kit with all gaskets ,valves and new bolts. Burned up the motor twice. Replaced it the first time. Rewound the Original Baldor the second time. Runs right now. No deficiencies. 80 Gals.

TMT --

There's a fair number of folks here in the US that consider Quincy compressors the Queens of the Air Compressor Ball.

All else being equal, I'd prefer a Quincy, Saylor-Beall, Curtis, De Vilbiss, or Champion to an OLD Ingersoll-Rand. (Of course, all else is very darn seldom equal in real life.)

As for a NEW IR . . . over the past half-dozen years I've heard enough stories from people I trust to make me very skittish.

John

You would probably be better off staying at 5HP if all you have is single phase. How much air do you need. 5 HP is sort of a cut off at efficiency. You get around 19 CFM with 5 Horse. My blaster uses about 22CFM. I live with it.

Where I work now I have seen an IR gas driven compressor with T-30 decals on the tank in very bold script. When I look at the compressor head it says 30-T. Looks a little weak to what I am used to looking at in my basement.

I have a HausFeild Campbell 6 HP with a 30 gallon tank hooked in to a 100 gallon tank. Works great, the last old compressor I had need to be rebuilt and would have been cheaper to buy a new one. So I bought a new one, then got the aux tank for $50. Been running for 3 years now.

Jerry

You might want to search the archive; there have been many compressor discussions. There is absolute consensus that industrial types are vastly preferable to the inexpensive home depot types, and that the ratings between the the two classes are NOT comparable. That is, a 5HP IR T30 puts out a LOT more air than a 5HP Home Depot job, basically because of motor ratings lies, but this has been explained in detail on other posts (and I am not qualified to explain)

The other big differences are: the industrial types are much quieter, and they last much longer.
I think the big difference between an old and a new industrial type is mostly price.

I recently paid $300 for a reconditioned IR T30 without motor, and I got a 5HP single phase motor for it. 5HP single phase isn't real common, but you can probably find one on Ebay. You certainly would not want to buy one new. I got mine used from a local motor shop for $100. The same model new lists in Grainger's for about $2500 when I checked.

I've got an IR T-30, approx 8 years now, bought new from Grainger at approx $900.

While there are no problems in my really light service, things like the self-tapping bolts used to secure the motor make one think twice about the unit's construction.

However, the tank's ball valve will hold a charge for a solid year before it runs again so it is nice and tight.

I guess I thought I'd get a lot more useage out of a big compressor when I bought it but the minimal blasting I do with it barely justifies its capacity. I'm well aware of the inefficiencies (hence cost!) of running the compressor and would really prefer electric tools for their quiet efficient manner except when it comes to heavy impact wrenches.

It's still a nice feature to have in a shop but you just have to seriously force yourself to come to terms with what you really need it for.

-Matt

I don't see the advantage in buying a new compressor when used ones are available that will more than handle your needs. Look for an industrial unit and you will do fine.

I don't know how everyone else feels but I always leave my compressor live. I shut off all rubber hoses, but all hard piping and such are always live. With Winter here and my garage not being heated my compressor would go about three or four months withut cycling. I'm sort of scared of anything prone to moisture and oil sittting for any length of time. With acceptable leaks my compressor cycles once maybe two times a day with no use.

Air compressors, new or old?I've got several, a 5hp "black Max" on a 60 gal. vert. tank, just sitting over in the back corner on skids, so I can move it into place if needed as a standyby. Noisy, and lacking output and using more current than the Gardner-Denver I'm using, although to be fair about it, the G-D is on 3ph, 230v. The BM is 230, 1ph.
The GD was originally a 5hp single stage, I reringed with new valves and refitted the rods, the ball bearing mains were good. Yall, this compressor is at least 50 years old! After talking to the mechs at a compressor shop in Atlanta about improved oils and intermittent use, I equipped it with 7.5 hp motor instead of the original 5 hp, and used pulleys to overdrive approx 50% over the original 575 rpm. It is mounted on a 60 gal tank and that tank sits atopan 80 gal. tank! I run sandblaster on props, air grinders, air wrenches when I must fix my vehicles, spray paint, and just about anything I need to do, and seldom have to wait on the air pressure.
Awhile back, I found another G-D 5hp, this time a 2stage, 5hp, 60 gal tank, a little rough. $100 later, it was mine. I tore down the compressor and found that the primary cylinder was heavily pitted, water, I guess. Anyway an automotive machinist friend of mine bored and sleeved it with a 454 chev. sleeve.
When I get around to reassembly, I'm going to use it to replace the 1 stage I'm using and use the 7.5 motor and 50% overdrive on it.
Then I plan on mounting the 1 stage G-D on the tank the @stage came off of and plumb it and wire it as an installed standby.
And yes, I think the name brand oldies are far better than most of what you can buy today.

The vintage units are superior to the new cheapies. I'm sure capable new compressors abound, but are costly compared to a "retired" industrial unit.

I have a 30-year-old 2-stage Emglo. It's a V-4 pump on an 80-gallon tank with a large 5HP single-phase motor. It could use some freshening up, but even in it's current state of tune will deliver more CFM than I can use.

I also acquired a smaller 2-stage Kellogg-American unit in the same deal. It has a 60-gallon tank and needs an overhaul kit ($75) and a 2HP motor. The price for both of these was right (FREE), as they were being discarded as "worthless".

I think it would be worthwile to look for a used heavy-duty compressor as opposed to buying a marginal consumer-grade unit....even if it has a huge tank, as seems to be all the rage these days.

even the 15 and 20 hp industrial piston compressors are being replaced with rotary sets now so they are going cheap in the used market. Plus IR has dropped there new prices to about where they were 20 years ago, so you can pick up a real good machine for about a third of 4 years ago around here.

The new I-R T 30 compressors have been cheapened up considerably. The castings and some of the machine work on them are coming out of China. I have had the opportunity to compare I-R T-30 series compressors from 20 years ago against recent ones. The quality is definitely way down and things have been lightened up and cheapened up wherever possible. I have a friend with a compressor shop who does a lot of specialized heavy compressor work, so have heard some real warnings about what I-R recip compressors and even their rotary screw compressors have come down to. I-R is building 5-year throwaway compressors compared to qwhat they used to build. Word also is that on some of the smaller T-30 compressor units, I-R is not even building them with an unoader worked off the pressure switch. This is the simplest, cheapest way to make an unloader. Instead, I-R is simply counting on the motor having having enough snot to start the compressor loaded. Word also is they figured out how long the motor would tolerate loaded starts and got it figured well enough so the motors last thru the warranty period.

Quincy offers a few lines of recip compressors. Their original line is still there. These compressors use cast iron cylinders & crankcases, disc valves (as opposed to I-R with reed valves), and the crankcases use automotive type full-pressure lubrication. Quincy cheaped this line just a bit by going to some really crude looking cylinder cooling fins on the castings. Computer modelling showed their engineers that the older design with numerous finer fins was not needed and a few massive fins would carry off the heat.
Quincy uses head unloaders which work the intake valves. Their compressors are designed for heavy service, continuous running. We use them on powerplant governor air supply systems and I have used them on locomotive airbrake systems.

Be forewarned: Quincy's quality took a real nosedive in the past few years. We bought some new compressors from Quincy and found flywheels machined out of true so they had a face runout of almost 1/8", cylinder head air leaks due to sloppy machining, and problems with the oil pump relief valve machining so that a factory new compressor had no crankcase lube pressure. In all cases the local Quincy dealer made good, but it was a PITA to take compressors out of service for repairs. One compressor on a governor air system for our turbines had so many problems due to sloppy machining that Quincy simply shipped in a new compressor. Our powerplant ate the labor on that one. Once we got things straightened out, the newer Quincy compressors have been fine. They are kept live 24/7 only coming down for preventative maintainence & oil changes.

The locomotive airbrake compressors are on a diesle locomotive use din tourist train service. In season, the compressors are run continuously for 12 hours a day, loading/unloading as required. They replaced the original Gardner-Denver compressors. The Gardner-Denvers were iron block, single stage, splash lubed machines. They were put on new with the locomotive in 1941 and lasted close to 60 years. Finally, one of them took out a crankshaft, and no parts were available, so I made the move to Quincy. Other than oil and filter changes, the Quincys have run fine for about five seasons.

Quincy makes two other lines of recip compressors, so do not be fooled by the Quincy name into thinking all Quncy compressors are created equal. They make one line which is cast iron construction/splash lubed, and then a line with die cast crankcases and cylinders (iron lners) and reed valves.

Champion is a division of Gardner-Denver. I believe Gardner-Denver is out of the business of building smaller recip compressors. We bought a specialized medical grade breathable air compressor package for the powerplant made by Champion. It was built in Princeton, Illinois. Overall, it seems like a well built unit for the times we liv ein. Meaning: it is lightened and cheapened up any way possible over older compressors. We have had problems with the unloaders on this unit (Control Devices, pilot valve to operated the unloader valve). Otherwise, it seems well built. I have not seen any Champion compressors of conventional (oil filled crankcase) design, so can;t comment further.

Kellog American has been merged and absrobed a few times over. We had older Kellog-American compressors in the fleet garage here at the powerplant. They were an OK compressor, iron construction, splash lubed. They used a centrifugal governor to work a pilot valve for the head unloaders. Problems we had were mainly that the valves were a little light and would give out from time to time. Parts got harder to come by. We replaced the two older Kellogg-American compressors with one big Quincy recip, running nice and slow, about 15 years ago. The last Kellogg-American went for scrap within this past year.

My own 'druthers: If I were buying a large air compressor for a shop, I would hunt down a used Quincy. I would make sure it had the following features: Later model oil pump (Quincy switched from a vane type oil pump to a gear type pump some years back. No parts available for the older vane pumps); Spin on oil filter (again, this is the later style oil pump/crankcase); Head unloaders- can be piped up for continuous run mode (using a pilot valve) or intermittent operation (using lube oil pressure to work head unloaders). Parts for the disc valves are a bit pricey, but overall, it is a much more rugged compressor. I would make sure it was turning fairly slowly for the cfm needed. Quincy, like any other air compressor manufacturer has a variety of cfm ratings based on crankshaft rpm. Salesmen will tend to take a lighter model and gin it to make the cfm. For a compressor in continuous service, it shortens the life. Go for a bigger compressor, turning a bit slower. It will be quieter, last longer and IMHO, more energy efficient than running a smaller pump at higher speed at the edge of its envelope.

Joe Michaels

I have a Black Max 60 Gallon upright. It has a single stage 2 piston aluminum pump with cast iron cylinder liners. I picked this up for cheap from an estate sale. It was new and never used when I bought it.

The compressor is labeled "Heavy Duty", but I am not overly impressed with this machine. Looks like something that could be bought at a Homier tool sale. Also, the motor (220 Volt single phase) spins at 3450 RPM. I imagine this motor will not last very long and I will be replacing it at least once in my lifetime.

Anyone have experience with a "Black Max" compressor? I think it is made by Coleman. Am I correct in assuming that this compressor is made in China?

I guess Im kind of a compressor nut. I have two quincys, a devilbiss, a champion, curtis, black max. Most of these Ive taken apart and repaired in some way or I know whats under the hood so to speak. Best one Ive seen in the 5hp range is a 325 quincy pressure lubricated, next would be the devilbiss 432, champion, curtis, black max. Does everybody need a 325 quincy? No. Most home shops probably can get by with a china made black max if they just change the oil in the pump occasionally. I just like the hear the old thumpers running vs the scream of a high speed import.

Gauge, I've got a Black Max, but only because I found it on the street outside my shop - a neighbor upgraded and left this one for the taking. It works fine, the only leaks are my fault - they're in the plumbing. I don't recall where it was made, but it's the typical "5" hp model that isn't really anywhere near that. It's noisy, but the price was right, and nothing's broken yet.

Andrew

Joe has pretty much 'said it all', and there isn't much I could add.....yes, the Quincy make, in its best grade, is the compressor pump of choice amongst those who know compressors....

Its no little bit depressing to hear that the quality level of new ones has gone to hell....as a little bit of a rant, so to speak, I'd like to offer a thought....when we think of industrial sabotage as a method of making war, we tend to think of, say, the French resistance, back during the war, finding ways to sabotage the equipment in the industrial plants which had been captured by the Nazis....by various and sundry technical means, and at great risk to themselves.....but in the 'here and now' it would seem that our enemies have somehow done a masterful job of inducing some American management people to sabotage our own industries, acting, little step by little step, to destroy America as an industrial power.

Alright...'rant' over for now.....soap-box stowed away...

Yes, it seems that, if you want a serviceable compressor, you probably have no realistic choice but to rebuild an older one.....the Quincy is best, to be sure, but a Curtis would be a very good choice, as well, as would be the Saylor-Beall, or a Kellogg-American, if its still possible to get parts for Kellogg, that is.

The Quincy was the most sophisticated of small recips....with its full pressure oiling and oil pressure unloaders.

The Curtis has 'ring oiling' and a centrifugal unloader, and, in practise, will run just about as long as will a Quincy.

The Saylor-Beall is 'purely splash' oiling and centrifugal unloading, a much less sophisticated design, but is a well-built and robust unit, with a good record for reliability in service. (we have two 5hp Saylor-Beall Model 705 compressors ganged for our glass-bead rig here)

There were a number of good makes of American compressor pumps which are now a 'question mark' for rebuilding, for reasons of parts availability.....if someone is able to research parts availability for pumps such as Kellogg, DeVilbiss or Worthington, for example, that would be good info to post here.

Unfortunately, there are some American makes of compressors which carry names which were once known for quality.....but now are 'caveat emptor' equipment....one of the simplest tests involves 'will a magnet stick to it?' (aluminium alloys are not an acceptable material for compressor pumps, except for the pistons)

Personally, considering the generality of small-shop service, and given parts availability for rebuild, I'd think about any of the makes I'd mentioned would be pretty much equally serviceable.

As was mentioned earlier, one of the 'keys' to good service from a small recip is to run it at its minimum speed. Along with that, keeping its air cleaner clean and unrestricted, and keeping it cool will go a long way to keeping it in service for many years.

The all too common practise of putting a compressor in a small enclosure without adequate ventilation for cooling is a good way to destroy any compressor from over-heating.

Best quality compressor pump oil, with relatively frequent oil changes, is dirt-cheap at the price.

If you can bring yourself to find the time to have the head off your compressor every two or three years time, have the valve cage assys out, lap the cage faces and fit new valve discs and springs, you will fore-stall one of the most common causes of pump failure. Worn rings or low-quality oil will cause the compressor head to become carboned-up....I've seen some compressor heads which were literally carboned to the point at which there was almost no air flow at all....having the head off, removing the carbon, and servicing the valves, will often 'just get by' to keep a badly worn pump in service for another years time.

When the valve discs wear and begin to leak down, the pump runs hotter and longer for the same amount of delivered air, leading to needlessly advanced wear of the unit, as it runs on and on, getting hotter and hotter.

The price of the valve discs/springs/head gasket, for basic maintenence service, is really minimal, and the time needed to service valves is actually quite little....its a simple easy job.

Running air intake piping outside the building, and providing a good automotive type muffler in the intake piping, near the air cleaner, will go a long way towards quieting a compressor inside a shop.....its a subtle detail, maybe, but well worthwhile.

cheers

Carla

Gee, when I started reading and saw "larger compressor", I thought about the 3 that we have - 200hp each. The big compressor is 500hp radial accross the street!

I have a 5hp compressor made by Smith at home. All cast iron. They made them for the "high end" single phase applications like service stations.Since there are very few service stations, Smith got bought out in 02 and Boss Air only sells screw compressors now.

Before I would run through a RPC, I'd put a single phase motor on. A 5hp unit should take about 36 amps for starting so you'd need to be on a 40 amp breaker. IR sells a 7.5hp unit that's single phase ($2200 at Northern) which would probably run on a 60 amp breaker.
JR