TIG prices vs performance

slim pickens · Mar 21, 2005

I found a local place that sells used TIG machines, more industrial sized machines than hobby type. I want one for a large hobby application, AC/DC, water cooled, 250 amp max down to very low (5-8 amps or so min). They wanted $2600 for a used Miller Syncrowave 250 full setup (coolant pump, foot control, torch, hoses, etc) and $2900 for a used Miller Aircrafter 300 full setup. Is it just me or does that seem steep in comparison to new prices? And what about the inverter machines? Can the inverter machines handle thin steel and thin aluminum welding as well as thicker plate?

mark thomas · Mar 21, 2005

I watched Ebay for almost a year looking for something in this class, and I came to the conclusion that welders hold their value well. But $2600 is a bit high for a 250. It also depends on condition too. A full 250 setup like that in excellent condition just sold on Ebay for $2400. You have nothing to lose by making them an offer. You didn't say whether it includes a bottle, but if not and they are a gas and accessories supplier too, you can also bargain for a package, like getting them to throw in a free bottle with an initial fill, and some consumables, etc.

I gave up looking for bargains and ended up springing for a new inverter model, which I don't regret. Cost me a grand more than I wanted to spend initially, but in my cramped shop, the savings in floor space and the portability is worth it. In terms of capability, the inverters are no different. They are just a lot smaller and more expensive.

Too_Many_Tools · Mar 21, 2005

I spent a better part of the year chasing for used TIG machines. Those that I found were overpriced (90-95% of new), obsolete as in no parts available or beaten to death.

Factoring in the fact that better (but not necessarily cheaper) electronics are developed all the time, I decided it is far better to buy new than used.

I bought a SD180 and I am very happy with the decision.

Good luck and let us know what you end up with.

TMT

tnmgcarbide · Mar 22, 2005

if you can live w/out square wave , there's an
abundance of older machines available in the
$500-$1000 range. miller 300A/B's ,lincoln
idealarc tig 250/250(what i use) 300/300,
linde, airco, chemetron...
these old dinosaurs may not have the conveniences
of a new synchrowave, but are reliable and
excellent machines . they just never seem to wear
out .expect lowest amps of 4, 6, or 8.

jfsmith · Mar 22, 2005

I bought a new Lincoln TIG 275 Ready Pak from my local dealer for $3,500.00 this has the cooler and all of the basic accessroies with it as well as the wheels to move it on. I made up the stick cable for $60.00 Plus I spent about $400 on the argon bottle. The unit was shipped from the factory, so it wasn't a show room floor deal.

This torch works great, has lots of stuff to change when needed. I chased around looking for used ones and never found a clean one or one worth the price since I knew how much a new one could cost.

This is from the Lincoln website.

http://www.mylincolnelectric.com/Catalog/equipmentdatasheet.asp?p=5408

My dealer knocked off $600 from the list price, made some money on the argon bottle, but gave me a great package deal.

Jerry

mark thomas · Mar 22, 2005

Jerry, what kind of bottle costs $400? Is that really large?

rustyzman · Mar 22, 2005

Little OT but, what are you guys paying for an 80CF bottle of argon? I mean, the bottle And the fill.
Reason I ask is, I just picked up an old Miller EconoTwin HF in beautiful shape for $250. I now have the TIG torch, collets, lens, cups, flowmeter, etc... for another $120. I go to get an argon bottle and they want $150 for a used empty bottle from the airgas dealer and another $30 to fill. I'm not trying to be cheap, but a new argon tank off ebay is $140 shipped to me. Anybody getting better deals?

This welder completes my welding setup. I have been waiting a long time for a TIG rig. Already have a 295amp Marquette AC unit for animal work, a small solar MIG for quick welds and a Harris oxy set for brazing, cutting, welding.
I know the EconoTwin HF is not a spectacular welder, but it is durable and will be good for my hobby work.
I just don't feel like dropping almost as much for the stinkin' bottle as I did for the welder!
Any thoughts?

Pete.

mark thomas · Mar 22, 2005

I just bought a 80CF for $125. The dealer threw in one free fill that normally costs $30. The dealer claimed recent steel price increases account for high bottle prices.

jfsmith · Mar 22, 2005

Mark,

I bought a big bottle, a 300 CuFt bottle. It cost $336 filled. I thought it was $400, but check the books and it was $336. Sorry about that.

I checked on ebay, my new welder on ebay was about what I paid for it, the used ones were up there in price.

Jerry

jfsmith · Mar 22, 2005

BTW, steel prices are way up for the gas bottle industry, plus there are a lot bottle coming out of the service life in my area.

I would NEVER buy a gas bottle off of eBay, liability and control of gas bottles varies from state to state. Lots of safety issues to look at also.

Jerry

DocsMachine · Mar 22, 2005

You guys have to "buy" the bottle? The local (Alaska) Air Liquide rents 'em, if you can call it that. Last I picked up a bottle of nitrogen, since it was a first purchase of that size tank, I paid, I think, an $11 "rental" fee, plus the $30 or so the gas cost.

That was several years ago, and when I recently picked up a shiny new TIG (Miller Synchro 180) I exchanged that nitro bottle for one of Argon of the same size. All I paid for was the fill.

Is this not standard/common? I do the same with the 75/25 and straight CO2 for the MIGs, and the oxygen and acetylene for the torch. The 'rental' seems to be a one-time thing, then you just bring the tank in and exchange it for a full one.

As far as TIGs go, the older units work just fine- functionally speaking, depending, of course, on how that particular machine has been treated. The two major features you get with modern machines is "pulse", which seems to be of little benefit for most non-production type work, and adjustable or "square wave" AC.

If the machine has HF start, decent heat control through the footpedal (or other remote) and both AC and DC Straight, it'll do you just fine for anything but the extremes (really thin sheet or dirty aluminum.)

Doc.

Team FAST · Mar 22, 2005

I just paid $26 for a 80 cu ft refill of Argon here in Fort Worth.

Personally, I am ready to upgrade to a 150 cu ft. 80 just seems to run out too quick. I use it in a home/hobby shop setting.

My machine is a Lincoln Idealarc 250 (non square wave). It is everything that the folks above have commented. Rugged, simple, and effective. I was able to run a bead along a beer can. :cool:

rustyzman · Mar 22, 2005

Doc,

No remote heat capability on this unit. I can only hook up a remote switch for the HF start.
I suppose I could get creative with a gear reduction motor and make a crude up/down pedal, but it sure wouldn't be instant.

As for bottle rental, yes, they do that too. Here's the kicker, $150 deposit on the bottle and $3 A DAY rental :eek:

. As a home hobby guy, I could own that entire business paying the rental fee per day long before I run out of gas. I guess I will bite the bullet and buy their tank. It just gets me that the $150 is buying me an old, used tank. Last tank of O2 from them had a first hydro test date in the 1950's! I'm just complaining now.
I guess its just the price I've got to pay to play. It will be nice to finally have TIG. Got to start saving tin foil and pop cans for stock

.

Talk to you all later!

Pete.

14tony · Mar 22, 2005

1950's bottle. How did you get one so new. The vast number of bottles out there are 40's or earlier. Bottles do not wear out. When the Navy went out of the Helium business back in the 70's, thousands of bottles were sold off, refurbed and put into civilian use. Those bottles all had 30's and 40's initial dates and they are still out there.

Too_Many_Tools · Mar 22, 2005

Anyone thinking about buying an used welder should go visit the repair center first and do some comparative pricing.

There's a very good reason why certain welders are showing up on the used market...no support is available for them.

Do a little research and you will find that IF the parts for your used welder are still available, the price will be a number that you will not believe.

With the consolidation of the welding industry in the last few years, manufacturers are dropping support for older welders left and right. Support for the new ones is not much better. I just learned that the add-on pulse option for the current Miller SD180 has been discontinued. Being that I just brought a new SD180 last fall, I am not very happy to hear this. The SD180 is a very popular welder with a significant number having been sold. If Miller is willing to limit support to this product offering, they are doing it to their entire product line.

Like I said, do your homework BEFORE you spend your money.

TMT

KrisG · Mar 22, 2005

My personal feeling is that due to all the advances in electronics, the newer tig machines are the way to go. They are much easier for the part timer to use, and produce better results. I have a Lincoln precision tig 185, and I really like it. The best place to buy these is at one of the regional air shows. At the EAA events like Oshkosh, Lincoln always has a show special, and they even throw in free shipping. I got mine last summer. They also have some great seminars for welding beginners. In fact, Richard Finch, the guy who wrote several of the welding books, was teaching there last summer.

I just got a flyer from Lincoln on show specials from Sun and Fun in Florida, and it says you don't have to go to the show. It lists a number 216-401-9850 that you can call. The precision tig 185 is listed at a show price of $1594 with the cart and torch package. This is on from April 12-18. I have no connection with Lincoln, but you might want to take a look at this unit.

jfsmith · Mar 22, 2005

Gas bottle have a level of liability to them, so the cost for them is controlled by courts in some areas, why others are controlled by state laws. It's actually you buy the first one and they are always safety upgraded every time you exchange them.

Some bottles have lifetime leases and others can be purchased outright. Most of my bottles are relatively new all of them are 1980 and beyond, except one little oxygen bottle I have it's from the 60s. I have checked all of my bottles for dates and information before accepting them.

As far as the welders, old ones are legendary, new ones work great.

Jerry

timekiller · Mar 22, 2005

Docsmachine, sounds like you fell throught the crack on the rental agreement. Around here it is about $9/month per cylinder plus their $4/invoice hazmat charge. :eek:

You should go to your gas supplier about the rental charge and get this straighten out. :eek:

Ray

Toolbert · Mar 22, 2005

Going back to the OP and the high price. The Miller Syncro 250 is about the most desirable high-end TIG and between its functionality sweet spot and the name, probably holds the best resale value of any modern welding machine. Above that they get harder to deal with, as reflected in personally-observed auction prices for larger machines dropping as a percent of new cost.

The inverter TIGs are cool but you need to decide if DC-only is OK. Have to go to a pretty high-end inverter to get AC/DC. I think they all easily go down to a very low current, unlike conventional TIGs where you have to go pretty far up the line to get good *low* current control. I've heard mixed reports of the utility of DC for aluminum. No personal experience.

I don't know how good a value that Lincoln 185 is, it's rated only 15% duty cycle at the nameplate output, compared to say the Miller Syncro 180 which is rated 30% at its nameplate output for around the same cost. (No I haven't looked to see if that's a fair apples-apples comparison)

KrisG · Mar 22, 2005

Miller makes great stuff, and their 180 is probably a great welder. I went to the web site, and both the Lincoln and the Miller have a 100% duty cycle at 90 amps. They appear to have the same rating on the torch, and at the top end Lincoln is 15% duty cycle at 185 amps vs Miller at 30% at 180. Down in the range where you do most of the welding, you probably won't notice the duty cycle. I know it hasn't been an issue for me. These are both hobbyist machines, and as a practical matter, you probably won't tig weld anything over 3/16 inch thick on them. For most stuff a hobbyist would weld, they should be fine. Miller also shows at EAA in Oshkosh, and the great thing about the shows is that you can actually try the product and see what you think.

The reason I said to get a new Tig welder and the reason I like the lincoln is the arc is very tight, clean and precise. It is really easy to control. This is because of the advances in electronics over the years. The Miller may be every bit as good in this area.

If you want a bigger more powerful machine to weld thicker stuff or weld continuously, you are looking at least another $1000 or more and another 150 pounds in welder weight to make that step. In my mind, you getting more into industrial usage than Hobby use.

TIG prices vs performance

Aluminum

Titanium

Stainless

Diamond

jfsmith

Guest

Titanium

Aluminum

Titanium

jfsmith

Guest

jfsmith

Guest

Titanium

Aluminum

Aluminum

Hot Rolled

Stainless

Aluminum

jfsmith

Guest

Stainless

Stainless

Aluminum

Similar threads