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  1. #1
    Milacron's Avatar
    Milacron is offline Diamond
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    Usage mostly for panel saw, radial saw.. right now. Future use for 18 inch planer, 8 inch joiner but low volume compared to typical cabinet shop. Could probably "get by" with a 2hp $200 bag blower or $500 cyclone/bag system but wondering if a 5 hp $3,000 "super clean exhaust" type like from Oneida or Felder would be worth the extra $$ ? In other words, if the $3,000 Felder would suck up considerably more dust particles from the saws and provide cleaner exhaust, it might be worth spending the extra $2,500. But if it only sucked up a tiny bit more dust than a typical Tawainese 2 hp cyclone type, then I'd be more inclined to go the El Cheapo route.

    Here's links to compare some-

    www.oneida-air.com/testing/comparison/comparisonchart.htm#price

    Here's the Felder unit

    www.felder.co.at/d_popup_details.php?id_products=0000002665&title=H 2+Clean+Air+Dust+Extractor+RL+160&id_lang=00000000 02

    (mac, you can get me a super deep discount on this puppy, right ? )

  2. #2
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    D., Get the big unit as it will give room for expansion. Also rig it up outside as it makes some noise.
    P.s. CFM IS the determining factor in dust flow. also there is the non-ferrous issue if you work with recycled lumber. That 18 in planer will make serious chips and dust!

  3. #3
    CharlesM is offline Aluminum
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    D,
    Check out this page:

    http://billpentz.com//woodworking/cyclone/index.cfm

    I built my own from the plans and information on this web site. 5HP estimated 1590 cfm with no pressure drop. Using it on 24' planer, 8" Jointer, 16" table saw, 10" table saw, 20" band saw' 2 HP shaper, belt & disk sander. The cyclone is very efficient, very little dust get to the filter. I have around $1000.00 in the whole system including the duct work.

    Charles McGough

  4. #4
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    DT

    That's the one place I deviated from my strategy and bought a Grizz.

    It was cheap, every other manufacturer had them made in the same factory, just different paint and decal jobs, and if it was off by 10% I sure couldn't tell the difference.

    -Matt

  5. #5
    metlmunchr is offline Diamond
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    Don,
    I looked at the Oneida page, and if their test numbers are accurate (which they probably are, since measuring airflow and static pressure is easy, so bad numbers are easily refutable), then the Oneida system is probably worth every cent in comparison to the imports. The HP versus air delivery on the imports is uniformly horrible as compared to Oneida, and this is indicative of poor wheel design. A material wheel is typically a paddlewheel design with straight radial vanes. Since these designs are not actually conveying material other than the fines, the wheel could be either a paddlewheel or more likely a backward inclined design, as they are both good for high static pressure applications. Because the imports have poor airflow even at the open inlet condition, I'd say they're using a forward curved wheel similar to what you'd find in a home heating system. They're good for producing volume at minimum static pressure, but are largely incapable of producing much static pressure regardless of how much horsepower you use to drive them. The real numbers that matter are in the column showing air flow at 3" static pressure. Compare the Oneida 3hp commercial with 1595 cfm @ 3" sp to the Grizzly 3hp with 710cfm @ 3" sp. Then, when you compare the price of the two, you see that on a $$/cfm basis the Grizzly actually costs as much as the Oneida. Although its a minor factor, the operating cost of the Grizzly on a per-cfm basis would be over twice the operating cost of the Oneida. Fan wheel design is everything in devices like this, and its very clear Oneida's got it and the imports ain't got a clue. Unless you really think you'll eventually need the capacity of the 5hp system from Oneida, if it were me, I'd consider the 3hp unit. If a 3hp import will work for now, the 3hp Oneida will do everything you need at this time, and still be capable of doing that much again in additional capacity as you add machines.

  6. #6
    Milacron's Avatar
    Milacron is offline Diamond
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    Cliff, here's another one with good numbers and info on exactly how they measured them

    www.woodsucker.com/testing.htm

    In fact it's looking like the 2hp Woodsucker II, at $899, may be the best bang for buck with the comfination of excellent efficiency, moderately high CFM, and super clean exhaust.

    I don't think the name will win my "coolest machine tool name" trophy however... :rolleyes:

  7. #7
    Tak
    Tak is offline Senior Member
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    Don,

    I have the 3hp Oneida commercial system in my shop and Iím completely satisfied with it. I did quite a bit of research and comparison before I settled on the Oneida. It is very well constructed and has plenty of power. As can be seen from their test data, and as metlmunchr was able to determine, Oneida provides accurate test numbers of hp and flow while the imports provide wildly overstated data based on ďriggedĒ tests (much like the so called ď5hpĒ shop vacs available at Home Despot). Also, the Oneida uses a sturdy metal impeller capable of handling heavy flows of material. Finally, from my research, I think the biggest factor to look for in a dust collector is a HEPA filter Ė bags just donít cut it. I have a friend with a Jet bag collector and he still sometimes finds a fine layer of dust in his shop after a heavy day of woodcutting. The Oneida has completely eliminated this problem in my shop. In fact it has been able to tame what I believe is the worst offender of any of my wood working tools Ė the radial arm saw. I mounted two collectors, one on the table and one on the blade guard, and the Oneida provides enough flow to pull in all of the fines, even if they donít hit the collectors directly. In fact, the amount of vacuum the thing can develop is almost scary. With a wide-open duct, Iím almost afraid of getting an arm or something sucked in and stuck!

  8. #8
    Tannewitz is online now Aluminum
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    Don,

    No matter what you do choose one that uses a cyclone to remove the bulk of the material by weight before you ask the filter to do the work. Also the modern cartridge units with pulse air cleaning work best. I would put the unit outside in a room similiar to a compressor room with HEPA filters in the wall to return your heated air into the shop in the colder months and exhasut that same air outside in the warmer months unless you have AC in the shop too.

    They come up for sale at many of the auctions we attend. You can always buy a cyclone to put inline on the suction side. A $10,000.00 unit seldom brings over $ 500.00 today. By the way the Onieda cyclone design lacks in effiency compared to say a Torit by Donaldson.

    For example you can get a brand new cyclone, put a decent sized dent in the side of it with a hammer and that dent will disrupt the airflow to the point that it will not seperate out the lighter particles.

    John

  9. #9
    metlmunchr is offline Diamond
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    Don,
    The test method is legitimate. One of their footnotes states that air delivery of the fan itself is a useless measurement, and I'd agree. That would appear to be what the imports are doing to get their high claimed airflow rates.

    Looks like the price is substantially the same on the woodsucker and the Oneida 2hp component unit. They point out their wheel is steel while Oneida's is plastic. This may or may not be advantageous depending on how good they are at building fan wheels designed to run @ 3450 rpm. Oneida's site has several closeup pics of the woodsucker that you can access by clicking on the Woodsucker name on the Oneida page. Those pics don't really show the workmanship on the Woodsucker to be outstanding IMO, particularly in the area of welding, so I'd want to see if the fabrication of the fanwheel looks better. We had a high pressure wheel to come apart shortly after startup one time on a commercially built high pressure air handling unit designed to deliver about 25,000 cfm @ 10"sp, and it ain't a pretty sight. If a plastic wheel were to unload, it doesn't have the metal piercing capability of steel fan blades. As you can probably tell, I'm still more than a little leery of heavy, high speed fan wheels. Technically speaking, the plastic wheel constitutes a much more sparkproof arrangement than the steel wheel, but neither design would be considered explosion-proof. Probably not a big deal one way or the other, but worth mentioning.

    Based on the tests, I'd say the Woodsucker and the equivalent Oneida unit would perform equally. The price difference looks insignificant. Of the two, based on the available pictures, I'd probably choose the Oneida based on perceived quality of workmanship.

    Added: TakMan's comment on final filter efficiency is worth noting. Somewhere in the stuff I looked over this afternoon there was a mention of typical import filter bags being good for 30 microns. That'll definitely leave a nice layer of super-fine stuff all over the place. The pleated filters do a far better job, both from the standpoint of absolute filtering capability and also because they have a large surface area, which reduces the face velocity. John's comment about stuff in the used market is spot on too. I've got a Torit cabinet type bag filter unit on my bead blaster that I picked up in like new condition for 25 bucks. Works great, but it should because it's a $3000 filter unit hooked up to a $1500 bead blaster. Torit makes top shelf stuff, but it ain't the low price leader

    That Woodsucker name does sorta suck, doesn't it?

  10. #10
    Milacron's Avatar
    Milacron is offline Diamond
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    They come up for sale at many of the auctions we attend.
    Yep, I cringe at the systems I let go at auctions over the years because I didn't need one at the time. Last one was at the RJ Reynolds auction about 4 months ago....modern 10 hp cyclone with 8 bags hanging from metal manifold with all ductwork/blastgates to about 6 machines, sold for 900 bucks. Probably an $8,000 system and all inside, so still like new.

  11. #11
    Tannewitz is online now Aluminum
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    One more thing, try to avoid the types like the Onieda where the dust is captured INSIDE of the filter. Almost instantly the effectiveness of that fiter goes down when the media gets clogged. Take a look at this for example:

    http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...867988987&rd=1

    You hook the unit up to a supply of compressed air and through a simple control board the air pulses the filter clean on an adjustable timer control depending on the application.

    This is the like the system I have... not good enough:

    http://www.mist-dust-collection.com/...y/cyclones.htm

    Go to this link:

    http://www.uasinc.com/Air_Pollution_...nward_flow.asp

    and "click on" the link to "pulse cleaning technology" in the upper text. I would add that type of unit to the discharge of a cyclone blower combination. They, UAS, sell a package as such, but more importantly those type of units are for sale everywhere at pharamaceutical plants, food grade plants, etc, again for around $500.00 without the cyclone.

  12. #12
    metlmunchr is offline Diamond
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    John, is the normal airflow on these pulse cleaned filters from the outside in, and the pulse of air backflushes them from the inside out?

  13. #13
    Tak
    Tak is offline Senior Member
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    Iím not trying to act as a sales rep for Oneida; here are just a few of my observations:

    For example you can get a brand new cyclone, put a decent sized dent in the side of it with a hammer and that dent will disrupt the airflow to the point that it will not seperate out the lighter particles.
    Yes, but the inside of the cyclone is easily accessible (at least in the Oneida, I canít speak for the others) so it would be easy to knock any dents out.

    They point out their wheel is steel while Oneida's is plastic.
    They are only comparing to the 1.5hp unit, which is substantially different from the others. All of the 2hp and above units use an aluminum impeller.

    the plastic wheel constitutes a much more sparkproof arrangement than the steel wheel, but neither design would be considered explosion-proof.
    Thereís a whole debate about whether using plastic over metal components (ducting, fan wheels, etc.) increases the risk of explosion due to static electricity. Whether or not its true or just an ďurban legendĒ is open for debate. I do notice a definite static charge built up on the plastic hose of my shop vac when vacuuming up wood dust though. Given the potential for a spark in a fine dust environment, I suppose it is plausible. Oneida also recommends to visualy check the dust bin after every use to make sure there is nothing smoldering inside.

    Of the two, based on the available pictures, I'd probably choose the Oneida based on perceived quality of workmanship
    There is definitely something to be said there. Also, my system is a couple of years old, and I havenít looked at their website for a long time. I see now that their units are powder coated (mine is just galvanized). I have to admit they look even better now.

    try to avoid the types like the Oneida where the dust is captured INSIDE of the filter. Almost instantly the effectiveness of that filter goes down when the media gets clogged
    I suppose that is possible but I havenít noticed any problem. With the filter completely out in the open and accessible, all it take is a few light taps with the hand or a few puffs from the air hose to dislodge the fines from inside the filter where they fall into the easily removable dust tray at the bottom. Since everything is contained inside the filter, this is easily done with ZERO mess. Also, since the filter itself is easily removable. Iíve rigged up a plain ductwork system that I can attach in place of the filter to direct the (unfiltered) exhaust outside of my shop. I use this arrangement as my weld fume exhaust system.

  14. #14
    Tannewitz is online now Aluminum
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    Yep-
    Thats right. Some people make there own using the same type of cartridge filters used on over the road tractor trailers. Due to the volume they are made in if you shop around the price is quite cheap. Donaldson makes the housings most manufactures use and the new ones even have cyclonic action.

    Dont get me wrong bags work okay too, but the system needs to be much larger in physical size. The pleats in a cartridge system give more surface area of filter media. As a general rule 1 square foot of filter media can handle 6 cubic feet per minute of air. Some wood shop systems use a 10:1 ratio. I like to over do things and would stick to 6:1

  15. #15
    jkilroy is offline Diamond
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    I vote for the bags, get a much larger system than you think you need if you plan on running that 18" planer hard. I would go with a 5hp 4 bag if, for no other reason, that I don't want to stop working and empty bags every hour. Plus you might as well have some room for growth. I run a 20" planer hooked to a 7.5 hp using three big bags and I can fill that baby up pretty quick.

    When the bags get nasty take them to a laundry place and run them in those huge machines that take $5 in quarters, once dry they work like new. Note, DO NOT let the attendant see you putting those bags in the washer, trust me on this.

  16. #16
    Milacron's Avatar
    Milacron is offline Diamond
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    jk, I thought the wood planer chips would tend to fall into the drum more so than the bags...yea or nea ?

  17. #17
    Milacron's Avatar
    Milacron is offline Diamond
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  18. #18
    jkilroy is offline Diamond
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    Sorry, by bags I mean I use a bag filtered system with plastic bags for disposal. The bags are about 2.5 feet in diameter and 6 feet tall, that goes for the plastic collection bags and the filter bags.

  19. #19
    Bodgit is offline Hot Rolled
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    I have 3 of the dust collectors in my shop, all purchased used. The Torit is the best quality and is all steel construction. The Oneida is good and I use it most as it's 2hp and on a 55 gallon drum dolly. The third is made with a 5hp BAC blower and huge stainless steel cyclone from the local junkyard with an Oneida plenum.
    Cyclones are the way to go. New, the Oneida is the best value. Used I'd go for a Torit as big as you can fit in your shop space. These sell periodically in the local Swapper for very cheap prices because they're 3 phase units. You can't beat Torit's quality and performance.
    I'd stongly advise against an Asian import as they make poor quality motors and most of their designs are cheap knockoffs of American technology.
    Any of the US made cyclone units should last for years.
    Steve

  20. #20
    cmiller231 is offline Senior Member
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    I have the 1-1/2 hp Onedia , It has the filter inside ( a pita to clean ) They told me it only needed to be cleaned every 3 or 4 times that the barrel is empited( kind of BS).At best every other time . Thats If i catch the barrel before it is full.Other wise the filter is packed full ! Been thinking about putting a plastic sight window in side of drum. . So i would but a 2hp with external filters if i were to buy another.
    .The 1/4"-28 scr that holds the impeller on came loose after very few hrs . No big deal really !
    I would buy another Onedia though Chris

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