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O/T: Burn veggie oil in a small diesel generator and make $$$ w/power company?

J. Elliott

Hot Rolled
Joined
May 18, 2002
Location
Boonville, NC 27011
Fellas,

I know this is off topic, but I have such respect for the experience of the guys who hang 'round here. Don, I apologize, but this is where I come to get straight answers on any type of machinery-related topic... :D

This'll be one of those "yes, you can do that", or "forget it!" questions. I hope.

While checking out this fry-grease to diesel deal, I started wondering about the plausibility of powering up a smallish generator with veggie oil and pumping electricity back into the grid. I'm not talking about setting up a power plant, mind you, just something to offset the power bill.

It would be cool to be frosty in the summertime and toasty in the winter fer cheap, aye?

Anybody know much about this kind of thing? I suppose a guy would start running into regulations if he planned on producing a lot of juice with some kind of big rig. Pollution, noise, and all that. But how about something small? Can you get away with a small and not deal with EPA, etc?

Been done before and worked, or done before and found to be too much trouble? One last thing - I've found a best price of about a $1.25/gallon for new veggie oil. (Forget about scrounging up fry grease, that was just what everyone else calls it. I'm looking at using new, clean oil.)

So - any way to make electricity with a small diesel engine and small generator, with fuel at $1.25-ish a gallon, send it back into the grid, and come out ahead. This is my question.

Link to a smallish generator:
http://cgi.ebay.com/20KW-ST-Style-Generator-Head-In-Stock-Now_W0QQitemZ330016340129QQihZ014QQcategoryZ106437QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
 
yes it can be done,,, but with a few legal issues

a listeroid idi engine will tolerate the vegie oil quite well, turning an induction gererator linked properly to the grid.

alot of other issues besides the burning oil, which is the least of the problems

btw, where do you get new vegie oil at that price?
bob g
 
The power company isn't going to pay you retail for the power. They will pay you wholesale rates for point of purchase. That can be as low as a penny or two per kwh.
 
Evan,

Good thinking. I wondered about that. My suspicion is that the equipment/fuel/maintainence/rebuild costs will swamp the profits, if any, and make for a big headache.

But no harm in asking.
 
This also applies to folks with small quantities of natural gas on their property (like my folks). It's true, they have to pay you, but it's also true it's pennies as far as dad could tell.

Tools
 
Wait a sec, I 'bout forgot my point. MAKING money this way, by supplying the grid with juice, seems far fetched. I'd be pleased if I could chop my power bill way down, though.

I've heard that if you supply juice through your meter that it will turn backwards. Sounds goofy, but if this is true, then whatever power you can produce WILL be comped (sp?) at retail rates. You might not get paid much for anything past your usage, but up to that point, you'd be offsetting the bill at a 1:1 ratio. Or abouts.

This old house I'm in needs central air/heat badly. I'd do it if I bought the place, but don't care for $300 a month power bills.
 
I've heard that if you supply juice through your meter that it will turn backwards.
That's true for old Sangamos and similar. They won't let it happen though. If they find out you are spinning the meter back they will be a tad upset. Electronic meters won't do that. If you make an arrangement to sell them power they meter incoming and outgoing power separately. Also, to provide power to the grid will require some sort of safety disconnect device that removes power from the grid in the event of a failure. That can be expensive.
 
where can i get the oil for 1.25 a gal ill run it in my ford powerstroker, dang price is going over 325 here ,jim
 
You'd need to do a real analysis of the situation taking into account routine maintenence, overhauls, fixing the price of fry oil to long term, amortizing the price of the equipment, contracting with the power company with breakouts fo peak load pricing etc.

There's an advantage in using biodiesel to feed the grid. The waste heat thus produced is free. You can use it to heat your house and domestic hot water (and your shop). When you consider the total energy budget for an active family consists of about 50% for domestic heat and only about 30% for electricity, waste heat is a better bargain even if all the income from generated power does is maintian the gen set as a waste heat source.
 
You better check on the price of that veggie oil. Soybean oil, the most common one in the US, is about $.26/lb on the futures market. At 7#/gallon, this is $1.82/gallon. There are several other veggie oils, and each have unique properties. They are interchangeable to some degree, hence the long list of possible oils in the ingredient section of the food labels.

The burning of neat veggie oil tends to produce glycerin in the crankcase and turn the oil to jello. This is why the biodiesel production removes the glycerin before making biofuel.

As another question, if a significant biodiesel program were to be started, what could be done with the glycerin? Would it flood the market and drive the price to near zero, or could it be absorbed with little discount from current prices? What are current prices for glycerin?
 
Nice idea, legal to do, in Ga. the company has to buy back at the price they charge you. Fine so far. Biggest problem in synch. You have to synchrinize to the grid "before" you can push power. I've had to work on a couple of big units that weren't synched when they threw the breakers. Worst case is a twisted generator coupling. Thats only a few million repair. In your case you could simply throw your breaker and have your generator motorize (briefly) so it would be running at the correct rpm and freq the you fire up your engine and try to overspeed it. As your engine puts power to the rotor it begins to produce power, the harder you push it the more power it puts out. The grid will keep it at speed (freq and phase). As long as your tied to the gride, you could put all the power to it and all you will do is puch power down the line.

Money. I have a 8kw that burns about a gallon an hour. I pay 11 cents a kW. At 1.25 a gallon, I would be making 8kw and hour. My cost to make power 16 cents a kw my cost to buy it 11 cents kw. It's gas so at $3 a gallon I can make power at 38 cents a kw. Not a big savings.

HP is roughly 745 watts per hp. So lets say you can make .75 kw per hp, at 11 cents a kw, you can make 8.25 cents per HP. What is your cost per HP per hour in fuel?

Options?
First if your generator makes enough power to run the whole house, or run the house during low peak periods, get one of them breaker thingies and when you power up your generator it will automatically isolate you from the grid and you can supply your own power, only if you can make it cheaper than you can buy it.

Run the generator all the time and offset your power needs from the grid (in parallel) so that if you use 15Kw you only buy 5 kw. Problem is you have to be synched and the biggest liability issue is if the line goes down you then become a power source. So if the lineman is working on an isolated line, you are back feeding it and will kill the heck out of him.

Risk outweighs the benefits. If you are going to make power, isolate from the grid. Don't take chances. The few cents you "might" save are not worth it.
 
Several replies have recommended using the waste heat from the genset. What is the best way to do this? Or alternatively, does anyone have experience with a waste oil heater running on used & filtered fry oil?

I have access to used oil and would like to heat several small greenhouses and the farm shop with the used oil if I can get it to work right.

The issues I've heard of from a local supplier who does alternative energy installations in ag/horticulture environments came down to problems with getting the veg oil to aspirate consistently as it was injected into the burner and cold weather viscosity changes.
 
ok i few more details are in order

if you use an induction generator it will auto sync to the grid, and stay lockin in frequency.

the control circuitry is expensive to do legally, as when the grid goes down you have to have an auto disconnect to keep from kill line workers. in theory if the line goes dead the induction generator should quit feeding it, but the stray capacitance in the lines can keep the generator pumpin juice into the otherwise dead line, cause a dangerous situation for line workers.

it is true that you will receive only the deferred cost of generation or a fraction of what they would charge you per kw/hr... this varies state to state.

think cogeneration, or combined heat cycle, this is the term used to run a generator, and harvest the wast heat, often that heat is approx 2/3 of the btu content of the fuel. in cogen mode, you can get efficiencies as high as 90%

the use of water cooled diesels eases the ability to run as a cogenerator, just use the heat off the cooling system, and harvest off the exhaust.

u have to have a use for the excess heat, wintertime yes, summer not so much, domestic hot water production either time of year.

set it up as congeneration, water cooled diesel, forget selling to the grid, and use it yourself,
the power has the highest value to you, the generator.

bob g
 
I have a friend that does make money selling power to the utility. He generates over 100kwh using hydro power. He uses induction motors powered by pumps running in reverse. Here is his web page.

http://www.smallhydropower.com/more.html

His situation is fairly unique. He uses water from a man made lake that was created in the late 1800s by gold miners for use to power hydraulic cannons. Because of that he has no concerns with fisheries to worry about. He was able to negotiate a better than usual price because of his location. He is close to a remote village of several thousand at the end of a long single phase feeder from Williams Lake and by supplementing the power on that feeder close to the point of use he has saved the utility a lot of money in upgrading the feeder.
 
I think that is a terrific idea!!!

1) The safebreak electronics could be a bit expencive.

2) Deisel engines run fine on veggy oil. You've just got to pre-heat the oil inorder to lower it's viscosity before it hits the pump/injectors. *Lots* of my hippie freinds have done this and I've never heard of anyone turning thier crank case oil into jello. Check out
<a href="http://www.goldenfuelsystems.com/FAQ.html" target="_blank">
http://www.goldenfuelsystems.com/FAQ.html[/url]

3) 1.25 for virgin oil is pretty good. Probebly not soy. I'll bet you've got a channel to some bitter canola or rapeseed or something. At those prices you could build a little biodeisel conversion business. Here in CA BioWillie brand bio deisel is retailing at the pump for 3.17. It's not a real hard process. Check this out.

<a href="http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html" target="_blank">
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html[/url]

4) Getting at the waste heat is not problem at all! Just hook the cooling system up to what ever piping system you want to warm up. Not a bad idea to recover the waste heat comming out the tail pipe too... though, that's a bit trickier... still not hard though.

5) Liberated gylcerein is pretty cool stuff. I'm not sure how our freind is getting to collect in his crank case, as it burns real good in the deisel combustion. Nitro-gylcerins is pretty useful stuff! It is also an ingrediantin high grade soaps. It is also a non-coloric sweatener in food products. It has lots of uses. Thus it is a valuable comodity! Food grade stuff runs near $100 a gallon.

Good luck!

B
 
Having worked in and around comemrcial and industrial pwoerplant for the past 35 years, I know that pumping power back into the grid is not practical with a home plant. Utilities, righfully,r equire all manner of protective relaying and transfer trip circuits on independent power plants pumping power into the grid. This is to insure that if the grid goes down for whatever reason, the independent plants (like home cogen plants) do not keep pumping power into the grid. In addition, the utilities require some sophisticated revenue metering equipment. The end result is the economies of scale do not favor a small independent generating plant selling surplus power into the grid.

The Power Authority I work for built a 3 unit smallhydro plant in 1981. I was consturction super on that job and took it thru startup. It consists of three low-head Francis type hydro turbines with 1 Megawatt induction generators on each turbine. An induction generator is nothing more than an induction motor driven by the turbine. To start up, the turbine is started rolling and gets the motor to nearly synchronous or rated speed. The line breaker is closed in. Since the motor is already roling, it has little inrush currnet. Not being a synchronous type generator, it simply "slips" into synch with the grid. At that point, the induction generator is motorized, but since the turbine is already turning it, it uses little additional power. As soon as that occurs, the turbine gates are opened wider and the unit begins producing power into the grid. This is about as simple a powerplant as it gets. This plant is interconnected into the local utility distribution grid. As a result, there is alineup of cabiets int he plant with protective relaying, transfer trip circuitry and revenue metering. This lineup of cabinets looks like it belong sin a plant with several hundred megawatts of generating capacity rather than a paltry 3 Mw. For this reason, I do not think very small cogenerating plants or very small hydro plants can be sell power into the grid economically. The portective relaying, transfer trip circuits and metering are the killer. It comes down to what the local utility requires for protecting their grid from the small, independent generators. Some federal regulations may have been enacted requiring the utilities to purchase the power and relaxing the amount of protective relaying and similar that used to be required. Induction generators really do make life a lot simpler if a person is going to try to pump power back into the grid.

Induction generators are about as simple a generator as can be had. Plenty of people do use old induction motors for the purporse. This type generator uses power from the grid to excite and regulate, so really is not a true "stand alone generator". Smaller inducation generators have been made from motors and have been built as "stand alone" unit using capacitor circuits.

Years ago, I did design two small instalations using induction generators. One was driven by a "fitz" type waterwheel and wasused for park/municiapl ballfield lighting. Since it was an induction generator, it was tied into the grid for excitation and regulation, so pumped excess power into the grid. This was about a 25 Kw installation. The other induction generator went into a dowel mil up in Maine. They had an old Ames horizontal unaflow steam engine which had driven the lineshafting. The boilers were fired on waste wood. When OSHA made it difficult, if not impossible, to use lineshaft driven machinery, they went to individual electric motor deives and shut down the steam engine. After the 1973 oil embargo and a few other spikes in electric prices, the mill owners reconsidered. They wanted to produce their own power and heat the mill with the exhaust steam, using the waste wood fuel (shavings and sawdust) to fire the boiler. As it was, they were giving away the shavings and sawdust to farmers. I calculated the available HP of the engine and theoretical KW output based n some losses thru the lineshafting. The result was about 150 Kw of generating capacity. The mill owners got a big, used induction motor of about 200 HP. We designed a drive to get from the lineshaft, which turned at about 350 rpm, on up to 1800 rpm. What was used wa smodern belting and sheaves. The Ames engine drove a chunk of the original lineshaft, and that, in turn drove a jackshaft at about 900 rpm, which then drove the generator. Governing of the Unaflow was by a flywheel-mounted cutoff governor. The only way to adjust engine speed was to shut down and get a wrench and adjust the governor springs in the flywheel. This didn't work for the induction generator as it had to be put on line at less than synch speed and then load increased by raising the "speed" of the governor. The mill owners took a small gearhead motor and drive from an old hospital bed and put it to working the speeded spring tension adjustment in the flywheel. They then rigged sliprings and burshes so they culd get power to the gearhead motor as it was now turning inside the rim of the flyhweel. The speed and load control on that engine was nothing more than the pendant control with "raise-lower" pushbuttons that the hospital patients had used to raise and lower the bed. It worked out well as the local utility was reasonable to deal with and did not make matters overly complicated or expensive. Minimal cricuitry in the form of a transfer trip circuit (so the mil generator would be automaticaly tripped off line if there were a problem in the grid) was mainly all that the utility required. A "two way" meter was installed and the millowners began pumping power back into the grid and heating their mill.

I am working out details for a small home cogen plant of my own. It will be a stand-alone plant. I am planning on using a Lister-clone diesel built in India, a 12 HP/2 cylinder engine running at about 650 rpm. Generator will be a 10 Kw 1200 or 180 rpm 2 bearing synchronous generator. I am deliberating using a Harley-davidson final drive belt and Harley rear wheel pulley in this drive rather than vee belts.

Waste heat will be recovered from the jacket water as well as frm the exhaust gasses. The engine jacket and exhaust heat exchanger will be pipe thru a coil in a stone-lined water storage tank. A bypass thermostat and radiator will allow for dumping excess heat from the engine. The stone lined tank will be piped into my home heating system. I do not expect it to entirely take over my home heating, but it should take quite a chunk off what my oil-fired heating boiler currently does. In addition, we burn wood for supplemental heat (barrel stove and heat-a-lator insert), so I am hoping to reduce my fuel oil and electric bills. I am designing my own waste heat recovery "boiler" for the exhaust gas. It is to be a shell-and tube type heat exchanger with larger tubes and "turbulators" in them. It will be able to be easily taken apart for running a shotgun brush thru the tubes as I anticipate some carbon soot fouling.

I figure the plant will be more of an experimental platform at first. I am using the Indian-Lister engine as it turns slow enough that I can work over to burning veggie diesel. I will have to come up with an electric starting motor for the Lister engine, as it is hand crank start.
We get a number of power outages around our home area each year. I think that even if the plant is marginaly economical, it will be good standby power for prolonged running. I also know that I have a habit of designing and building stuff as if I were working ona real powerplant or steam locomtoive, so whatever I put in my home plant wil liekly be "overkill" to most people.

I think the main reason for putting in this type of plant, for me, is to have a neat "old time" engine running, kind of a "fun" reason. At the same time, if this little plant get built by me and piped into my home heating loops, it should be able to do soemthing towards taking a bite out of fuel and electric bills as well as providing good backup power for long outages.

Joe Michaels
 
why not make your own still.
then you can burn or drink the alcohol.
I don't know where Booneville is, but I went to college in Boone, and those people knew all about producing fine beverages at home.
So much so that there was no alcohol sold in Watauga Co.

Around here there are old mill villages up and down the river. Most had their own hydro-electric facilities. People try to refurbish them, and it's quite a struggle with the powers that be. Duke power is required to buy the power, I'm not sure at what rate. Problem is- the guys have to deal with many state and federal agencies to divert the water in the river. One guy (who was a NC Congressman at the time) started building a grist mill on the river on his property. He almost went to jail over it, didn't have correct permits.
 








 
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