Questions on a Cincinnati Traytop Lathe

awake · Jan 24, 2006

Greetings! I have been coming down with the metalworking virus ... to the point that I recently bought a Cincinnati Traytop 12-1/2 x 30 lathe. It is in fair condition; I've been doing some cleanup, and I've had to repair or recreate a few things -- new sight glasses, a new wrench for the spindle lock, etc.

One thing on this lathe has me baffled. It has a clutch that engages when you lift up on a lever (actually two levers, one at the gearbox and one the rides along with the apron). This lever turns a square shaft, which works through a couple of linkages to turn a lever inside the gearhead to engage the clutch. So far, so good.

Here's the problem: I can't for the life of me figure out how the clutch is supposed to stay engaged. There doesn't seem to be any sort of over-center mechanism anywhere in the linkage or in the clutch itself. I can't feel any hint of a detent anywhere in the mechanism. Right now, if I let go of the lever, it promptly falls down and the clutch disengages.

Does anybody have a Cincinnati lathe? Can anybody point me in the right direction to figure this out? Any help will be greatly appreciated!

Andy

Mebfab · Jan 25, 2006

Its been a while since I ran one of these. I swear there is a detent inside the lower reaches of the headstock. Have you tried to get a parts manual?

One of the members worked for Cincinnati and will hopefully see this post.

What part of NC you in?

awake · Jan 25, 2006

Thanks for the reply!

Hmm, what do you mean by the lower reaches of the headstock? Are you talking about something inside the headstock (i.e., where the clutch itself is mounted on the input shaft), or something in the linkage outside?

I didn't see anything inside the headstock that looks like a detent mechanism ... of course, someone may have modified the machine in its previous life. I'll take another look.

Someone is supposed to be sending me a manual, but I don't know if it will include parts or just operation. I do know it includes a section on adjustments. Any thoughts about where to get a parts manual?

I'm near Angier, south of Fuquay-Varina.

Holescreek · Jan 25, 2006

Traytopjohnny where are you?

Dave K · Jan 25, 2006

I have a traytop in my garage. It's been a while for me also since I ran it, but unless I don't remember, I believe the levers don't have a over the top type feel. They can be used in the up position to just temporarily feed until you let go, and then they can be used in the down position, where they kind get tight and hold themselves until you pull up on it.

JimK · Jan 25, 2006

If you take the top of the head stock off you will see the clutch. It is a small multi disk type. There is an adjusting collar on it that takes up for plate wear. Yes, it has to snap over center. No, don't get it too tight.

Timw · Jan 25, 2006

I have 15 X 54 Cincy Hydrashift. I got it 3 months ago and had to ajust the clutch to get the detent. ( After a conversation with traytopjohnny) It has a Rockford style clutch. That is a clutch with 3 fingers that when engaged goes over center to hold the detent. The ajustment is simple BUT Must be done carefully. The clutch is located on the input shaft to the left and the brake is to the right.You get to it from the top.
If you have a FAX machine I can send you a copy of the instructions with a picture. I have a partial copy of my owners manual.

crzypete · Jan 25, 2006

I have a traytop as well, The owners manual was only $16 from Cincinnati in 2002 when I bought mine. My lathe is the more bare bones version where that square rod activates a switch, up is forward, down is reverse.

Peter

J Henricksen · Jan 25, 2006

The clutch fingers will snap in when set right. You could still have the clutch not work right if the bearing retainer on the left hand end
( behind the drive pulleys)is loose. I worked on two different cinci's that did this. Everything was good in the clutches and brakes and it would still not pull a cut unless you held the lever up. Finally I tore into one of them and found the bolts holding the retainer had worked loose. This allows the clutch shaft to shift endwise enough to releive the load on the plates when you let go of the lever.
New parts for the clutches (Rockford Pullmore)can be had a whole lot cheaper from North American Clutch and Driveline in Machesney park Illinois 815 282 7960. They can figure out what size from the id od of the different parts.

Chevy427z · Jan 25, 2006

Just wanted to say "hey" Andy, and welcome to the forum. I'm down in Clinton, little south of you.

Mark

awake · Jan 25, 2006

Many thanks for the replies!

Dave, I think your lathe and mine must be different models. If I push the lever down it will engage the brake.

JimK, TimW, and J Henricksen, what you are describing sounds like what I am seeing. I know something about how to adjust the clutch -- I looked up the patent number that I got off the clutch. So if I adjust it right, the clutch itself has some sort of detent to hold it in position? Looking at the patent drawings, I could not see how that would work. Right now it seems to engage the clutch, but not lock into position; should I try to loosen the clutch (ie, the collar needs to slide farther) or tighten it?

J Henricksen, tell me more about the bearing retainer -- if I understand correctly, I would need to take off the pulleys on the outside of the headstock (i.e., the pulleys that are driven by the motor). I will find some sort of collar there with bolts in it -- these need to be tight. Have I got it right? How should the collar be adjusted? Any particular tricks to taking the pulleys off?

TimW, I would be very glad to get pictures and drawings! You can fax them to my office at 910-893-1835, but you will need to put a cover page on it with my name: Andy Wakefield.

Chevy427z, thanks for the welcome. I teach at Campbell, so not far at all from you.

Many thanks to all of you! Hopefully I can get this thing up and running soon ...

Dave K · Jan 25, 2006

Actually, I misunderstood. I thought you were talking about the feed levers, not the spindle lever. My bad.

D. Ravizza · Jan 25, 2006

Andy,

I also have a 12 1/2" tray-top. Mine is an electricaly controlled lathe without the clutch. I ordered a manual for mine a few months ago. The price must have gone up because it cost me $39. But it was well worth it. The manual is extremely helpful when making repairs and adjustments to the lathe. I highly recomend that you order one. Here is the number to call 1-800-934-0735. Just give them the serial number of your lathe and they will send you the manual. Good luck with your lathe.

Dan

traytopjohnny · Jan 25, 2006

The adjustment is simple but easy to screw up as well. If the clutch was in proper adjustment then it will be necessary to move the adjustment one and only one notch. These machines are getting of the age where I have seen it twice now where the adjustment gear teeth are broken. You adjust it and it works and then it goes back to it's old habits. What ever you do, mark everything before you move anything. There is one and only one notch that is correct. That is a very reliable clutch. If you run into a broken part, PM me and I may have ideas. If you decide to adjust the feed clutches on yuor apron, Don't. These use very gentle pressure and are positive locking. You do not want to overtighten them. If you raise them up and they stay, that is all you need. All the tightening in the world will not make them any better. They have positive locking teeth.

traytopjohnny · Jan 25, 2006

Oh yeah! When you pull up on the adjustment "C" shaped spring, and move the adjusting ring "ONE notch and you release the adjustment spring, make sure it seats down into the tooth. It is very easy to dislocate this spring and it will now be to high for the clutch basket to pass. I am not sure but I believe this is how the teeth get tore off the adjusting ring. They are wonderful affordable lathes and with a little care will not require any parts. God help you if you ever need to buy anything from The manufacturer. They know yu will not need parts often so they try to extract what they can when they can.

awake · Jan 25, 2006

Okay, I'll try adjusting the clutch and see how that goes. On Friday I should have some time to play ... er, that is, to undertake serious investigative research that will result in significant improvement in our family's life ...

secetal · Jan 25, 2006

I think I have a traytop manual in the archives(Thats what I call them, my secretary has another name for my office

) If I can dredge it up you are welcome to a copy. Martin

J Henricksen · Jan 25, 2006

over tight clucth packs will not snap into place. The retainer is recessed into the side of the head case and held with three or four bolts. I don't remember which. the retainer is actually a bearing cartrige. All of the sizing is done by grinding spacer rings dtc. You shouldn't need to fool with any of that. undo the pulley retaining bolt, slip off the pulley, make sure the bolts are tight (5/16 allen wrench)
and put back together.

I replaces some clutch parts on a hydroshift-15.
the clutch pressure plate, the adjussting collar and the clutch disks. Cinci wanted 36oo$ for this handfull of parts with a 3-6 week delivery. I went to n american clutch after visiting Rockford powertrain looking for these parts. The Cinci guy had actually called n american looking for the same list I brought in. N american sold me the parts for a bit over 600$ and in three days.

No Clausing clutches though.

awake · Jan 26, 2006

Ouch -- $600 seems more than enough; $3600 is incredible. I only paid $500 for the whole lathe! Let's hope I don't wind up needing any new parts (that I can't make myself or talk a friend into making -- actually I had to replace a missing gib in the compound, but a machinist friend of mine made me a new one -- hurray for good friends!)

JimK · Jan 26, 2006

Just a little social BS here.

I had a 10 inch Cinn. lathe and I hold the 10 inch and the 12 1/2 inch Cinci's as my favorites of the bunch.

My Cinn. had the clutch drive, it was the most expensive of what was offered and well worth it. I had gotten accustomed to the clutches on the Pratt and Whitneys and I really appreciated the feature on a small lathe.

If there is any lathe that I would like to see someone bring back it would be those lathes.

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