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Burgmaster drills?

I've owned a number of 1-D's Burgies. The 1-D is nice and compact but the older and larger 2-B is nicer to actually use. The 1-D is a PITA to change the height for instance, whereas on the 2-B you just crank the table up and down. I had an air wrench with socket rigged to move my 1-D head up and down, which helped.

1-D's seem to be the most common Burgie one runs across in the used marketplace by far. The rarest of the modern versions is the model 2-C, which is like a 1-D but larger and nicer, usually with integral T slotted table and legs. I don't know what drugs Astra Tool is on thinking they're gonna get over $4,000 for that decrepit looking 1-D.

Having said all that, the Brown and Sharpe turret drill is the ultimate turret drill IMHO.
 
So for 200 bucks, I'm okay? Good to know it. I found a manual on eBay and won it, so I'll be tinkering with it until.

So, it looks like the drill you're actually using is the only one that turns under power, and ther others are just there until called upon?

Haven't even hooked power to it yet.

Richard
 
This thing's NEAT

Someone painted it all over, tags and all, but I figured out it was on 480 volts, and got it hooked up about an hour ago.

Also deduced out how to use the two-speed buttons on top, and it indexes nicely. Smooth sounding machine. D, how's it rated for tapping capacity?

Richard
 
Not wanting to sound critical, but I guess I am, what's two hundred dollars today? How can anyone even be concerned about paying too much for a machine when they get it for under a grand? Maybe the buyer is the only person on the face of the earth that would want a Burgmaster Drill, but I doubt it. Even if you can't sell the thing, big deal. People pay more for a meal for four at a nice resturant, than we are paying for our machines (toys). We all know what the meal becomes the next day, but the machine in your shop is there forever or until you decide it takes up too much space for the use you get oout of it.

Why are people so concerned about paying too much for tools? They are all such relative bargains these days, it doesn't even matter, unless you're spending money for tools instead of food for your kids.

A turret drill is a real labor saver, regardless of the brand. If you don't have a CNC mill, a turret drill's the next best thing. Now, Don knows I have the ultimate Turret Drill, since I bought his Brown and Sharpe. I paid three grand for it, which in todays market is probably two thousand too high. But since it's performed a lot of operations, since I purchased it, it hasn't cost me a thing. It's paid for itself. No Don, just cuz it's paid for itself, I won't sell it back to you for five hundred dollars.
 
Brian, Astra Tool would probably want $10,000 for a Brown and Sharpe as nice as mine/yours, but since your convinced $1,000 is the latest market value for one, I'll give ya that for it.
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There has been a lot of talk about a B+S turret drill. How about posting a pic. I have never seen one. And while on the subject of mythical B+S equipment anyone seen (in person)or used a B+S Omniversal mill?
 
I handed Sir Versamil a B & S no. 0 on a silver platter about a year ago. He's probably setting up ~2~ Moore rotary tables on it as we speak
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Re photo of the B & S turret drill, believe it or not, I don't have one ! Had some great ones, but they were lost in a hard drive crash a couple 'o years ago. Brown and Sharp actually bought the design from Howe and Fant, so occasionally one finds the old Howe and Fant machines as well, but Brown and Sharp made some notable improvements such that the B & S versions are more desirable.

[This message has been edited by D. Thomas (edited 10-11-2003).]
 
Looking through some old literature the other day. B+S made a stagering number of machines, cutters, attachments, measuring tools, etc. Shame what happened to them. As well as pretty much all other American manufacturers.
 
A quick search did turn up this spec sheet and drawing of one. Mine/Brian's was/is a little different in that it had a solid box base...all Z travel was via the head only.

There was a larger version of this called the Model B, but every model B I ever ran across was set up for NC controls, so I suspect nearly all of these have long been scrapped. Some of the Model A's were set up as NC machines, as were many Burgmasters. I once owned a 1960's NC Burgmaster 2B with a ~Hughes~ NC control...yes Hughes, as in Hughes Aerospace, as in Howard. Gawd, talk about your worthless machines....

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Is Astra tool some east coast machine tool emporium? If they think a Brown and Sharpe turret drill is worth a pile of money, they must be one step away from their very own goin' out of business auction.

Yes Don did turn me on to a cherry Omniversal. Thank you DON. But he did it reluctantly, waking me up in the wee hours of the morning to tell me it was closing in fifteen minutes, and how it was probably going to go too high for his tastes. Now I can't complain about an east coast phone call, but I shouldn't bid on equipment, without even having time to down a cup of coffee. I threw in a bid, that was too low, and crawled back into bed. After laying there for about two minutes, the fog lifted in my brain, and I was able to make it back onto the web site and put in a more realistic bid. The first bid I was third highest, the second bid I was high bidder.

I'm the proud owner of not one, but two Omniversals. Seems I like to own two of most machines, if they are really cool- like two Moore Precise rotary tables. I know Don, I shouldn't tease you so much.

I guess I could learn how to put pictures on this site, because I could take a picture of the mythical Brown and Sharpe Turret drill. I could also take a photo of the Brown and Sharpe Omniversal, but I don't think I should, cuz Don might get all teary eyed when he sees all the beautiful flaking on this like new machine.

For Metfabs information, the Brown and Sharpe Omniversal is a more robust version of the Deckel FP1. It's a pretty incredible machine, that can do some pretty bizarre things. Frankly I'm so busy doing production work, I've hardly used it. It cost Michigan State University $23,000.00 in 1954, so you can imagine what it would be today. That kind of money, would have bought two houses in San Francisco in the same year. The houses would have appreciated to a little over a million dollars, and the mill depreciated down to around three to six grand today. Hope it made some cool stuff. When I bought my first Omniversal, I thought it was the most universal mill I'd ever seen, and I held it in high esteem, like my 10EE's. But now it seems just a little bit too much of a weeny machine. Using it for production work, would be a travesty, but it would also be waste of time. Nothing beats a giant CIncinnati vertical mill for moving material. Just like the Deckels, an Omniversal has lots of capabilities, but in the real world how much can you use them.
 
Sheesh Brian, the no. 0 is not only not a more robust version of a Deckel FP1, it's not ~any~ version of a Deckel. It's verticle X ~ways~ appear similar to the Deckels verical X ~mounting~ surface, but that's about the only similarity I see.

Good point about the prices machines cost back in the 50's. It is amazing any business could afford them back then, when one compares those prices to houses and cars.
 
Don,
Good point about prices.
From Tony's lathe site on the CVA lathe:-

"The fabulous CVA lathe was made in England from the 1940s to the late 1980s - when they were still available from H. Cole & Sons in Dorking, Surrey for £28,700, plus another £2960 for the taper turning unit; "

£2950 for the taper turning attachment, two years earlier in 1978 that was the exact price I paid for a very small victorian terraced house. My gross wages at the time were £1300 UKP - per annum
Oh happy days
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[This message has been edited by John Stevenson (edited 10-12-2003).]
 
Ok, I agree with the 2 houses theory, but how many people are now or have been making money due to that machine teaching them something about machining by running it? And how much is that worth? 40 years of students putting their hands all over her, putting her through her paces, getting to know every aspect of her capabilities. That knowledge (knowledge is money!!!) has to be worth several millions, and maybe billions of dollars in itself. So don't sell that good investment short by comparing it to a couple run-down houses in China town. (LOL)
David from Jax
 
""Not wanting to sound critical, but I guess I am, what's two hundred dollars today? How can anyone even be concerned about paying too much for a machine when they get it for under a grand?""

That versamil biz must pay very well..........
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You business guys can pay lots for machines, but us others are not able to pay off ours in the way you can...so its harder to justify large expenditures for items, even according to the "buy good stuff once" rule.

So a couple hundred is noticeable, and "under a grand" is a whole bunch.....I don't eat very many of those $200 dinners.

Considering that I believe my whole shop including all machines and tooling (but not the pro-rated cost of the space) probably cost about what you paid D for that drill.......well it shows the business vs hobby difference.

Or maybe I am just a cheap-A Franco-Swedish import...
 
My point on machine tool prices may have been missed. I know a couple of hundred dollars for a lot of people is real money. The real point is machine tool prices have plummeted to such lows, that what I paid for a drill press twenty years ago, I can buy a milling machine or jig bore for, now. The home shop machinist can actually buy some of the finest machines ever made, for not much more than a Chinese POS mill drill.

I have a different value system for machines than most people because I make them. That means buying my castings and paying a buck to three bucks a pound for my raw castings. When I see a machine sell for five to ten cents a pound, I'm sorry, but that's chump change. For castings for an eight foot feedtable I pay almost two grand. I just bought a twenty thousand pound Devlieg jig mill for $1400.00. What a bargain. Five years ago, you couldn't touch a Devlieg for under ten grand. That's my point. It's almost dreamland buying machines these days.

I look at Moore Jig Bore tooling, and it's so cheap in relationship to what it cost in the eighties. Shops had to pay REAL MONEY for this stuff fifteen years ago. There's a pile of it on ebay right now, that is selling for 1/20th of it's new price. If it's just a hobby, no matter how cheap tools are, you have to budget for them. As a business though, that absolutely has to have the ability to manufacture goods, these are great times to get really well equipped.
 
You are right on some of that Brian. But there are exceptions.

I would like to get another OBI press just like one we already have. The only problem is that the one we bought new in 1973 is worth more now than it cost new.
Many presses sell for what could be considered dirt cheap. The prices on the presses I want remain high.

I have also been looking for a small Blanchard grinder. Prices on those are still relatively high.
And of course I missed the auction where a pristene small Blanchard sold out of a lab or $6500.
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I just have to keep looking.

Les
 
Why are people so concerned about paying too much for tools? They are all such relative bargains these days, it doesn't even matter, unless you're spending money for tools instead of food for your kids.

Some guys don't know my sense of humor. The 200 dollar remark wasn't to be taken to heart as if it were my last 200. I was kidding. Unfortunately, it ain't a toy either. I will be needing it to make some parts soon. Still, I am glad I got it for that price.

Richard
 








 
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