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Mori Seiki, LeBlond, American Pacemaker???

Nik Danger

Plastic
Joined
Jul 28, 2007
Location
Dallas, Texas
Hey guys and girls, I have posted quite a few threads lately as I am trying to set up machining capability in my shop. I have decided to go with an older machine of great quality and I have access to the three manufacturers listed in the title as well as a few Monarchs that are in need of refurbishing...which I don't mind. Parts are available for all makes readily except American Pacemaker...and that is just because I haven't taken the time to research. The American lathe is in pristine condition though... So now I turn to you and ask your advice based on experience with these manufacturers and what direction you would swing towards. All machines are in good condition ready to work and in my price gap. Thanks a whole bunch!
-Nick
 
I own a Monarch and several Lodge & Shipleys. I would go with the ATW.

As long as all the (possibly) 27 speeds sound fine and the feeds work, it is just what the name says - Pacemaker.

There are "soft" way versions - you can tell if the outer ways are hardened and ground tool steel simply by walking around to the tailstock end of the bed and looking at the ends of the outer vee ways. There will be a tongue and groove joint to the bed casting on the hard way machines.

John
 
American Pacemaker, LeBlond, Mori Seike, in that order. Of the three I have only ran LeBlonds, so my opinion is only based on what I have heard. The Mori Seikis that came from Japan are better than the ones that come from Korea. Nice lathe when new but will not last as long as the other two. I would guess that used parts for Mori Seike might be harder to come by than the outer two. My LeBlond is 99 years old and still working for a living. It can still do everything it could when it was new but of course LeBlond has made a few improvements in the last 99 years. Depending when the LeBlond you are looking was made, new parts may still be available from LeBlond and used parts show up all the time on Ebay. From what I have heard, the American Pacemaker should be at the top of anyones list. Gary P. Hansen
 
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When I was on the USS Samuel Gomphers AD-37 we had several (at that time) ten year old American Pacemakers. There were three or four 16 or 18 inch and two 24 inch versions.

Our cylindrical grinder was down, so we used the Americans to rough and finish turn the pump shafts for our fire & flushing pumps. The shafts were approx. 30” long and made from monel. The diameters for the packing sleeves were +.000 - .001 and the bearing diameters had total allowance of .0005”, .001” max TIR and were around 20” apart . Keep in mind these lathes had been on board ship for 10 years on a 5/16” thick steel deck, rather than concrete.

They ran like new ones. Beautiful machines.
 
Hi Nick, I agree with everyone so far, probably for a little different reason.

I am into "buy American" to some extent also, but the majority of my complaint about any of the Mori Seiki lathes that I have operated or seen is the location of the feed reverse feature. The Mori has this control on the headstock and if I am not mistaken the American will have it on the apron where it belongs. If the LeBlond is a Regal, it depends on the model of the lathe.

On a short lathe you don't get quite as much mileage walking up to the headstock to reverse the feed but it is still inconvenient because when the feed reverse is in the headstock it is a high speed thing and usually requires stopping the spindle to reverse the feed. On a long lathe, it becomes even more cumbersome.

The downside to the "buy American" philosophy is parts. Not in terms of availability, but in affordability. Any time I have tried to buy OEM parts for Lodge & Shipley, Cincinnati Bickford, etc. the price has been somewhere in the area of 5-10 times what I felt it should be. Not that you will need a lot of parts for any of them but???

A further recommendation, if you can possibly justify it, equip the machine with new chucks. It was a real eye opener for me when I changed jobs and went to a shop that had Mori Seiki lathes, probably 1-5 years old, that had Cushman chucks. It was absolutely amazing to me to be able to stick something out of the chuck 10"-20", dial it in at the chuck and have no more than .002"-.005" runout at the free end. This would be in sharp contrast to my prior experience on Monarchs and Sidneys that might have .005"-.010" bell mouth just in the length of the jaw, couldn't do anything without a steady rest or center hole.

Hope this helps, Dave :)
 
Hey guys and girls, I have posted quite a few threads lately as I am trying to set up machining capability in my shop. I have decided to go with an older machine of great quality and I have access to the three manufacturers listed in the title as well as a few Monarchs that are in need of refurbishing...which I don't mind. Parts are available for all makes readily except American Pacemaker...and that is just because I haven't taken the time to research. The American lathe is in pristine condition though... So now I turn to you and ask your advice based on experience with these manufacturers and what direction you would swing towards. All machines are in good condition ready to work and in my price gap. Thanks a whole bunch!
-Nick
I have no direct experience with American Pacemaker, that said My mentor (who grew up with a lathe and drill press and is getting to retire as a "go to guy" for what was union carbide and is now dupont R&D facility) He really likes the pacenaker lathe. He currently runs a Cincinnati Hydrashift at work and I now have one as well 18 X 96 slick running machine Much newer than the american and a bunch lighter (4000 pounds or so) all the Pacemaker lathes at dupont were Surplused. make sure to hear the machine run the last one I looked at before buying My Cincinnati the head was very noisy and It was a 3' center to center lathe so I passed, did I say my friend really liked the Pacemaker.
Just My 2 cents worth
Happy Hunting
archie =) =) =)
 
I once had a 10" LeBlonde lathe that needed a few parts.It had been made in the 40's for the Navy. They told me at Leblonde that I'd have to not only pay for the parts-IF AVAILABLE,but also for 40 YEARS STORAGE of those parts. What the Hell way is that to do business? Is this sort of thing helping our country to stay competetive? I sold the lathe.
 
I once had a 10" LeBlonde lathe that needed a few parts.It had been made in the 40's for the Navy. They told me at Leblonde that I'd have to not only pay for the parts-IF AVAILABLE,but also for 40 YEARS STORAGE of those parts. What the Hell way is that to do business? Is this sort of thing helping our country to stay competetive? I sold the lathe.
When was this ? Back in the 1980's Cincinnati Milacron was the same way price wise, but in their case "storage" was not the excuse...they didn't offer any excuse...but in their case I suspect you were paying for them to drag out a pattern, cast and machine the part, apparently. I remember I needed a handwheel for a grinder and the handwheel cost more than I paid for the whole machine... $1,500 or so.
 
alrighty well I went and listened to the lathes and they are all noisy mothers! compared to a clausing colchester of recent manufacture...so I will pass on those as they are expensive and I would hate to bite the bullet on such an investment. I posted a thread on here recently about colchester lathes but was informed that they are probably being manufactured in china these days...does anyone make a quality lathe anymore besides the cadillac which is bad ass? i would just like some choices...

the leblond had gear whine like my chevy in reverse ;-)
 
If it's in any decent shape at all, the Pacemaker would certainly be my choice. Chances are you won't need parts, they just don't break unless something extraordinarily stupid is done to them.

I ma just learning how good the Pacemaker really is. My first big lathe was a big Pacemaker. I therefore naturally assumed any big lathe could hold .0005 in 6ft on a 3 1/2" diam part. I also assumed 25hp was normal. Kind of like learning to drive in a Shelby 427 Cobra and then being exposed to the rest of the automobile world.

I have not run the Mori, but regularly run a LeBlond, a Sidney, and some imports, as well as my 90 yr old L&S I have at home.

The Leblond at work is only a 14"er, but I have to admit, that's a really nice little machine. Diametrical reading dials make it capable of nailing .001 with the cross slide, as long as you allow for a spring cut prior to finishing. I have hit .0002 on a bronze bushing using the compound at 60 degrees, takes a bit of patience to get it tweaked for that kind of accuracy, but it's a real good little lathe.

I had never run a big herringbone Sidney until February, but I'd have a hard time calling between a Pacemaker and a Sidney, all things being equal. Feature wise, they are very, very similar. I think the Pacemaker would win out just due to reliability, ruggedness, and sheer power if it came to dropping a dollar.

My L&S is an old 18" gear head, but she'll hold .001 all day long at the ripe old age of 90. It is actually a more enjoyable machine to run than the Pacemaker, just from the standpoint that the carriage doesn't weight as much as a good sized Toyota (ditto the tailstock). I'd love to run a later model L&S, especially the little 1408 or a big 2018 AVS (variable speed).
 
Looking??

Hi All
I am looking for a lathe to turn 28" dia x 48" long drums. All I have found are American Pacemaker (1957), Lebond model 40 (1957), Summit (New and 1982 used), American Turnmaster power one 40" (New) and Birmington model DL-4080 New). Has anyone got any comments on these???.

Scott
 
In no uncertain terms, Summit sucks. The one at work turns a .006 taper in under a foot. Even with a DRO, you cannot trust it at ANY depth of cut. You turn to about .003 over (if you are lucky), and file/polish from there. This lathe is less than four years old and has been useless every one of them from what I hear (I have only had to run it since February).

Buy the Pacemaker.
 
American Pacemaker, LeBlond, Mori Seike, in that order. Of the three I have only ran LeBlonds, so my opinion is only based on what I have heard. The Mori Seikis that came from Japan are better than the ones that come from Korea. Nice lathe when new but will not last as long as the other two. I would guess that used parts for Mori Seike might be harder to come by than the outer two. My LeBlond is 99 years old and still working for a living. It can still do everything it could when it was new but of course LeBlond has made a few improvements in the last 99 years. Depending when the LeBlond you are looking was made, new parts may still be available from LeBlond and used parts show up all the time on Ebay. From what I have heard, the American Pacemaker should be at the top of anyones list. Gary P. Hansen


How can you put the machines in order if you haven't ran all of them? Leblond parts are expensive, Mori parts are too but whacheon parts fit right in also. As far as lasting long I will put the Mori up against anything. In fact in all aspects I think the Mori is the best.
Some models (MS) have the feed reverse on the head stock but some have it on the apron (MH I think). They are very, very rigid we can do things on a flat wore out Mori in our shop that nothing else we have will do. We face valves and form cut RTJ grooves on a Mori that has done nothing but just that for 15 years. If your not familiar think of it as turning an unbalanced casting, it does this every day. Sure the bearings growl and the compound finally got re scraped but it is still an extremely rigid machine. As far as accuracy I gunsmith with a MS850 and I've never ran a more accurate machine, I wouldn't trade it for anything and I have ran colchesters, leblonds, L&S, Summits, Monarchs, and other machines. I'm not taking anything away from the american machines but a lot of them are pretty dated while the Mori is much more modern.
 
Not to take away from the Mori Seiki's quality, but you are comparing apples to oranges, IMO, when you compare a Mori and an American. As Mike alluded above, the Americans are built like a tank, the Mori's are built very well, but not nearly as rigid and solid as an American, some of this due to size - the American machine tools were built before cost savings became important and thusly have some of the most massive castings of any lathes. I would probably say the Moris are in the front running for being some of the better lathes available though, I'd guess they would be in my top ten. I think American is probably one of (if not the) top brands made anywhere in the world.
 
If you are planning to use carbide tooling, which I would recommend, make sure the machine you choose has a high enough RPM range, some of the older models of the machines you are looking at don't.

The Americans and bigger Monarch's were built like high performance tanks and I love them and would like to own one some day, but when looking at them keep in mind that they were expensive production machines and thus were generally run very hard and long. All the American's I've come across had substantial wear, this doesn't mean they won't work for you, just keep it in mind when inspecting them. They weren't toolroom lathes so its hard to find one in pristine condition. (Maybe if I make it to heaven, that's what will be waiting for me, a brand new American Pacemaker. Uh oh, I just thought of the flip side of this, down below waiting for me will be a Harbor Freight "all in one combo machine tool").

Paul T.
 
If you are planning to use carbide tooling, which I would recommend, make sure the machine you choose has a high enough RPM range, some of the older models of the machines you are looking at don't.

The Americans and bigger Monarch's were built like high performance tanks and I love them and would like to own one some day, but when looking at them keep in mind that they were expensive production machines and thus were generally run very hard and long. All the American's I've come across had substantial wear, this doesn't mean they won't work for you, just keep it in mind when inspecting them. They weren't toolroom lathes so its hard to find one in pristine condition. (Maybe if I make it to heaven, that's what will be waiting for me, a brand new American Pacemaker. Uh oh, I just thought of the flip side of this, down below waiting for me will be a Harbor Freight "all in one combo machine tool").

Paul T.
The speed of most if not all lathes increased after 1943 (WW2) when carbide tooling was invented :-)
archie =) =) =)
 
Milacron,I had my experience with LeBlonde in the 70's. The only part they had in stock was a cast iron cover for the gear train. They weren't talking about dragging out a pattern and casting a new one. I still think they had a $hitty attitude. That's no way to get my,or anyone else's business.
 
"If you are planning to use carbide tooling, which I would recommend, make sure the machine you choose has a high enough RPM range, some of the older models of the machines you are looking at don't."

Slowest mid sized Pacemakers were about 1000rpm. The guy I bought my L&S from sold it because he got what I consider to be the ultimate do it all lathe.... a 27spd 18" Pacemaker with 8ft between centers. Low speed of about 20 and top speed of 2400rpm. With a collet chuck (which he had), you can work 1/4" stuff on that machine using carbide, with ease. The switch to carbide and corresponding speeds came in the mid 30s.
 
I just bought two small pacemakers (relatively speaking). They are style C, the 16" swing and after working on those, I will stand behind Pacemaker everytime.

These are incredible machines. They are a real joy to work on and they are work horses. I was taking .3 DOC at 380 rpm on a 3" diameter shaft and .035 feed on a worn out pacemaker. (There is considerable wear on the bed, enough to make it tough to crank the carriage on the tailstock end when it cranks normal on the headstock end) and it held .002 over 24" And that .002 was in the center where I suspect the part flexed at that DOC. The headstock and tailstock were within .001. That is awsome, in my book.

Also, if you need parts they are readily available from Bourn and Koch Industries

http://www.bourn-koch.com/pages/content/replacement_parts.html

"Replacement Parts
As the OEM of all our product lines, we are able to provide the highest quality parts per original machine specifications. We are the OEM for American Tool, Barber Colman, Blanchard, Brown & Sharpe, Bullard, Conomatic, DeVlieg, Fellow, Futuremill, Jones & Lamson, Mattison Woodworking, Mattison Grinders, Motch, National Acme, New Britain, Rockford Machine Tools, Rockford Punch Press, Roto-Tech, Springfield, and White-Sundstrand."




Buy the pacemaker. If its in half-way decent condition you will never regret the purchase.

Mike - oh man! An 18" pacemaker with 116" or so between centers is awsome! Mine are 16 by 30's ... just short stubby little guys. They are beasts, though. Some day I hope to add to my collection by finding something like that 18" one.

Edit: B&K have manuals for all different machines too. You send them the serial number and they will print off the manual for that model and year. Cost is an issue though. My manual would be 150 bucks!
 








 
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