Thread: New machine damage claim proceedures ?

Free on Board is a really dumb statement when it really means the BUYER pays the freight from the shipper's location to it's final destination point.Unless it is 3rd party billed to someone else.DUH!

FOB means exactly what it says and is understood by everyone.

Example...
You are builder of stuff...your quoted price is FOB Factory. That means that you will load it onto your customers truck, and he is responsible for the transportation costs and owns the stuff from that FOB point, ie your factory loading dock.

If you buy something FOB DELIVERD... it's only yours after it's on your floor.

You are a machine shop making stuff...
You load your pickup and set off to deliver the stuff... you get hit by a drunk and the stuff is now scrap... Who do you think owns the the stuff?

This time you pack the stuff in a box and call UPS... they send it on to your customer... their truck gets hit and the stuff is scrap... Now what? What does the Purchase Order say? You say it's a Verbal PO? ok...Did you buy insurance on the stuff?

FOB means Free On Board (the ship). Free, as in free of liability for what happens after it is loaded from the port to the vessel.

Under the standardized international terms of commerce FOB only refers to goods shipped by ship. Other uses of the term may be made but do not have the same legal meaning or binding of the recipient.

The correct term is FCA meaning free of liability when delivered to the carrier (Free CArrier).

[edit]

If the free of liability point is the maufacturers loading dock then the correct term is EXW meaning EX (from) Works (factory) or EX Factory.

I would advise all to purchase shipping insurance from the carrier, it is very reasonable. I once had a used Bridgeport shipped and it got damaged, I did not have insurance. The freight company is only liable for 10% in dollars of the weight of the machine, this applies to used machinery. Differant rules apply for new. I will never again have anything shipped with insurance.

Tom

I don't really know what the rules are in this case, but you would think if the seller ever wants your business again they would at least help you in getting it resolved. Since you mentioned they will deal with the claim, I would beat them up a bit for a compensation for your time and hassles. Might not go anywhere, but it don't take much to try.

I turned the saw right side up today and sure enough more sheet metal related damage. The worst is that the capacitor for the motor got crushed and the cover was half full of oil from the capacitor. I don't know if any of the oil went down the wire hole into the motor or not...if it did it would probably have happened after I turned it right side up.

I found another oil capacitor of similar uF and have since run the saw and the motor seems fine..but I still wonder if some oil in there might hurt it long term somehow...seems if it's just a little shouldn't hurt anything.

Hmmmm...you learn something new everyday. I always thought FOB meant "freight on board".

Since Don apparently got his problem answered can I take this off topic a little?

If I sell an item on ebay (or anywhere for that matter), the seller sends me the amount for the item, plus shipping and insurance. If the item arrives damaged and the shipper accepts responsibility, the seller gets the insurance money. Is there a way for a seller to ship
things so that in the event of damage the receiver/buyer gets the insurance settlement?

It appears to me the way it usually works the seller is in the position of having to negotiate with the shipping company when he's already been paid for the item, possibly not much incentive to aggressively pursue the matter since he's already been monetarily satisfied. Plus there's always the chance of a dishonest seller who might pocket any settlement money leaving the buyer out in the cold.

always always always refuse a damaged crate...things are never good if you can see damage to a wooden box. If you recieve it, it is harder to get a claim

Although acceptance (inspection) is origin and at that point the gov't owns the parts we are liable till delivered.

All our contracts with DOD are 'FOB destination'.
We automatically include estimated costs for shipping and insurance when we quote.

I cannot imagine the hassles that would be involved if anything were to happen and we weren't covered.

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FOB means Free On Board (the ship). Free, as in free of liability for what happens after it is loaded from the port to the vessel.
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In this case FOB means "Freight on Board". "Free on board" applies to international shipping. These terms are covered by the Uniform Commercial Code (UCC). See UCC 2-401-2a,b
web page

In this case if the FOB point was the manufacturers dock, then the buyer is responsible for the machine at the moment it rolls off the dock and onto the truck.

That being said, often manufacturers have worked out an exclusive deal with a freight company and have some pull as far as getting a claim settled.

You can always specify FOB my dock on your purchase order. Most manufacturers are willing to accept responsibility (but not the cost) of shipping.

my point was dont sign for it or accept it if its damaged..then its not your problem

things are never good if you can see damage to a wooden box. I

Actually in this case it was just an open framework such that I could see the entire saw except for the upside down top area.

One reason I went ahead and accepted it is I knew if I made the driver stay there and witness me writing down all the details on the BOL, plus photos, I would get compensated somehow eventually, plus it's a bit of a hassel just to get another one since I'm 30 miles from the shop and not there every day...a PITA just to meet trucks sometimes.

It sounds like Ellis needs to invest in a "This Side Up" Stencil with an arrow...

Sorry to hear your response to my earlier response!. Mr. Thomas, I would most likely let Ellis believe that much more was damaged than actually was, just to make up for your "pain in the _s_!!..., and especially that motor, and pick out a few more expensive "maintainance type part's" you will need someday!!...

Don -

At the risk of this sounding like Monday morning quarterbacking - (its' not, though, because the following advice represents my SOP).

If it is a new item from mfg, or easily replaceable, and the crating is damaged, it gets an automatic refusal here. Less hassle to get them to ship another (and be available to receive it) than to wonder / worry when and if the damages will be corrected.

If the item is used / one of a kind, hard to find, I really have to have it NOW, etc., I will open it, make a decision, and if its a 'go', then list damages on the BOL and pursue it.

These policies have worked well for me since instituting them, before that, I paid for the knowledge I have on this subject with a lot of hard knocks.

Good points on the pictures, etc., for those damages that show up well in photos, its a lot easier than trying to explain in (detailed) writing.

Jess

For your 'train wreck' viewing pleasure.



Actually the crate was not as bad as it looks since I removed some wood before this photo was taken to inspect the damage before the driver left.

I followed a lot of discussion on horizontal band saws here. Ellis was highly regarded... but at the shop we got a Jet bandsaw which was well crated and not sent via "Upside Down Freight". Even then, wehn we had a problem, I called Jet and they shipped out major components overnight, no questions asked.

Maybe Ellis is too small to handle a major loss......... so maybe it isn't as good a choice as I might have originally thought.

It crosses my mind that potentially thousands of people whose opinion of Ellis might hinge on this resolution would be reason enough for Ellis to step up even if not legally obligated. Do they know that this is getting international coverage?

Ellis Machine Tool desires to keep their company on the small "family owned and operated" side, though they do have employee's that are not related!. Not long ago they were spread out in several old buildings. Just recenty they have combined most of their operations into one building!. Not only do they retrofit import machines to improve the quality extensively, they specialize in the bandsaws. I believe the company started out just selling custom cut bandsaw blades, which they still do, and their blades are the best I have ever used and the only one's I will ever buy again for my needs!!...I have no connection to Ellis, but my Buddy is registered to sell their products, but he is disabled now and has only been selling their bandsaw blades to previous customer's, he cannot physically do sales any longer, only assists pre-existing customer's order bandsaw blades and replacement blade guide bearings!.

If anyone owns an Ellis Bandsaw and needs to replace the blade guide bearings, my buddy uses a different type than Ellis uses that are better because they accept front and side pressure and are a little less expensive. If anyone is in need, get in touch with me and I will get the info.!.

This may be an old thread, but it caught my interest somehow. Fortunately, I have never been with this kind of trouble. The discussions are all very helpful. I might need this someday.

Originally Posted by steamfab

This may be an old thread, but it caught my interest somehow. Fortunately, I have never been with this kind of trouble. The discussions are all very helpful. I might need this someday.

Please refrain from doing this for the sake of everyone's time and sanity. Now 20 people are going to pile on with suggestions to a 6 year old problem because they didn't notice the date of the OP. If you want this as a reference, put it in your book marks.