600 weight oil???

I have an old Van Norman model 333 brake drum lathe that the tag says to fill with 600 weight oil. I have never heard of this. I stumbled on a model T website last night that said "old 600 is new 180". Have you ever heard of this?

Cannot confirm that "new" 180 is equivalent to "old" 600 but MAC'S Antique Auto Parts in Lockport, NY (www.macsautoparts.com) sells
600 by the quart.

Jim

As old as your van Norman machine is and as old as the Model T information is, they may both be referring to "steam cylinder oil". Steam cylinder oil is about a 600 weight oil. It is made by compounding heavy mineral oil stocks with tallow and a vegetable oil called "rapeseed oil". Many years ago, steam cylinder oils were specified for use in reduction gears and even some rear ends. A 600 weight oil is usally so stiff you have to heat the container to get it to pour with any sort of speed. Steam cylinder oils would be spec'd for use in gearcases since they held their viscosity at fairly high temperatures. We had some gearcases on an old diesel locomotive which had a combination of heavy spur gearing and Timken roller bearings. These cases were impossible to keep entirely oil tight so a lot of modern 140 wt heavy gear lube was getting thrown along the roadbed. I got in touch with our local lube oil supplier and they found us a heavy "semi fluid" gear lube with the EP additives (which steam cylinder oil does not have; EP = extreme pressure, a rating for use on gearing and roller bearing service). I do not recall the name, but it was a heavy bodied lube, somewhere between the heaviest gear lube and a grease. It was formulated for use in older gearcases which might use slingers or labyrinths rather than lip type seals. This lube worked out well for us. You might try your local lubricant distributor- an industrial lube dealer from a recognized oil company (not one of the new firms making all sorts of claims). I have had real good luck calling "Lubriplate" out in Toledo, Ohio. They have always given me good tech support when I have called to ask for recommendations on specialty lubes.

Joe Michaels

Mike,

It would be nice to know "Exactly" what the tag says.

SAE oils go only to 70
SAE lubes go to 140
AGMA lubes go to 8

My guess would be that it's calling for either one of the Saybolt scales (SUS 104 or SUS 210) or Kinematic.

If the tag says 600 wt SUS, that would convert to an ISO 150 light gear oil (probably should get EP additive) or SAE 75W/90 gear oil.

JR

I second what Joe Michaels is saying. Don't confuse 600W with "600 weight" as they are likely calling out Mobil 600W which is a steam cylinder oil.

It is especially formulated for worm gear applications, especially when the clearances get tight.

My experience comes from Textron ConeDrive units which is a double-enveloping and preloaded worm gear to minimize backlash....really tight clearances if you get the idea, and ideal for precise positioning.

Our plant has 7 fork transfer loaders which are all basically the same, one department kept seizing the ConeDrives, with resulting major delays, when finally we found out they had been putting something like Vactra in the gearboxes....just whatever they could find. They were steered to the proper oil and there have been no similar failures since.

A Bridgeport "E" shaper head also calls for 600W IIRC.

-Matt

BTW, in case you thought about compounding oil, I understand that "rapeseed" oil is now called "canola" oil. It would be worth confirming that before getting too far.

I suppose that the name change probably was suggested to make it sell better at the supermarket.......

Canola oil and rapeseed oil are not quite the same thing.
Rapeseed oil, which is used in industry, is high in erucic acid and is not for use as an edible oil.
Back in the 70's, in order to make rapeseed oil suitable for use as an edible oil, plant breeders in Canada developed varieties of rapeseed which produce oil with a low erucic acid content.
In order to differentiate between the two products, the name of the new type of rapeseed varieties (and the new low erucic acid oil) was changed to canola.
No doubt part of the incentive for the name change was also to facilitate market acceptance.

It just says to keep filled with "600 w oil". I drained about 2 gal out of it. The top layer looked like 90 wt gear oil. The bottom looked like reddish sludge. It slowly came out of a 3/8 drain plug. Also got a couple of spoonfuls of water.

There is a large bronze worm gear inside and a strange setup to move the spindle for taking a cut on a drum under power. It also has 4 open ball bearings. I am thinking about just putting 90 wt gear oil in it. It has to be at least 40 years old and I don't think it has ever been opened up. There was some rust on metal exposed above the lube but I cleaned that up. I was kind of surprised that there wasn't more rust. It must have been outside at one time.

I think you will get by with intermittent use with 90w gear oil.

However if you want it to last 40 more years I would heartily recommend the Mobil 600W....granted it's harder to come by but you'll never have to mess with it again or worry about wearing out the bronze IMHO.

90% of our conveyance runs on 1000 lb. double reduction (1 worm, 1 spur) cast iron gearboxes that are filled with like 25 gallons of 600W.

They just run. As long as the input shaft seal doesn't leak I've seen no problems in 5 years.

Just one guy's opinion to error on the side of caution.

-Matt

Matt, you got me thinking about something about bronze and a reaction with motor oil or gear oil that was harmful to bronze. I can't remember the details.

Mike W --

I'm voting with matt_isserstedt: err on the side of caution.

Many modern gear oils have chlorine or phosphorus based extreme pressure additives that chemically attack copper, including the copper in brass and bronze. These additives will destroy a bronze wormwheel in short order.

If you do substitute a different oil for the steam cylinder oil (which was the predominant worm gear lubricant throughout the 1900's), BE SURE that you use an oil that is non-corrosive to brass and bronze. Most of the oil companies have lubrication engineers on staff that will suggest appropriate lubricants, but these guys are probably not working the inside-sales desk at your local oil distributor.

Some inside-sales guys are great, but for some of them it's a "McJob"; I'd suggest that you protect yourself from the latter by reading the tech data sheet and container label to be sure that the product they sell you really is non-corrosive to coppera and suitable for worm gears.

John

Guys,

This is a Van Norman brake drum lathe. If I remember the 300 series is for truck brake drums. Probably built in the '50 or early 60's. It should be a big honking machine! I will probably turn a 30" drum.

This is after the days of steam cylinder oil. Also, there should be nothing high speed in that except the motor. From my days of selling for a DX jobber, I'll bet VN was specing Saybolt @104F. If the SAE gear lube table went up to 600W, it would be a very heavy grease, almost like an NGL-0. 600 SUS is somewhere between ISO 100 and 150.

I don't know about the EP additives that are in the automotive type lubes. If you want a good industrial lubricant, the Mobilgear 600 series has a 1B rating on copper corosion. IMHO, Mobilgear 629 looks about right.

JR

I just called a Mobil dealer. He has two types in stock. One is Mobil 600 w cylinder oil which is ISO 320-460. He said that compared to motor oil wt, the 320 would be 110 wt and the 460 would be 140 wt. One of the applications is for worm gear boxes, is supposed to prevent rust. $48.25 for 5 gal. Thanks for your inputs.

YES: Built AFTER the days of steam cylinder oil.

But if you want a source, Penrite (Australia) claims to sell the exact equivalent of original 600W steam cylinder oil.
Available from:
Restoration Supply Company
2060 Palisade Drive, Reno, Nevada 89509
(775) 825-5663 Phone
(775) 825-9330 FAX
[email protected]


[This message has been edited by dephenicie (edited 06-02-2004).]

STOP!
Ditto what John G. says.
Do NOT use modern EP lubes in gear cases with bronze gears or bushings. They will start to crumble.

Order the 600w gear oil available from the Model T vendors. It is designed for just such use. If you need to enter a model year, use 1919-1925 Ford

http://www.macsautoparts.com/
https://www.snydersantiqueauto.com/index.htm

Quote:
"YES: Built AFTER the days of steam cylinder oil."


Come on guys..Steam oil is still available.
Just because the railroads stopped running steam engines in the 50's doesn't mean the use of steam oil stopped.
last time I looked, a lot of plants today still have steam boilers,,and boilers use pumps (NOT centrifugal either) and pumps use steam oil.

I got this from Mobil site.

Mobil 600W Cylinder Oil is recommended for the following applications:

* The splash lubrication of enclosed worm gears operating at moderate to high speeds and temperatures. (Mobil 600 W Cylinder Oil)
* Steam cylinders, couplings, bearings, and break-in of compressor cylinders (Mobil 600 W Cylinder Oil)
* Mobil 600W Super Cylinder Oil and Mobil Extra Hecla Super Cylinder Oil are recommended for the above applications but under higher temperature and load conditions
* Mobil Extra Hecla Super Cylinder Mineral is recommended where ready separation from condensate is essential, for example, where exhaust steam is used for process work
* Mobil Extra Hecla Super Cylinder Mineral may also be used as a tempering oil for bath temperatures up to 290C


Under "copper srtip corrosion", the rating is 1B. I don't know what that means.

I am glad to read the posts validating my suggesting Steam Cylinder Oil. We installed a heavy worm drive reducer at one of our hydro plants to operate a floodgate on a dam. The gearbox was bought new in 1989 or 1990. The specs called for "Steam Cylinder Oil". There is something to be said for certain EP additives attacking bronze worm wheels in service. That is why the gearbox manufacturer held fast to the use of Steam Cylinder Oil as opposed to the "modern" gear lubes with EP additives.

As far railroads not using steam locomotives: There are plenty of steam locomotives in service for "shortline" or "tourist" or "historic" operation. I do enough engineering work to know steam locomotives in active use is not limited to an isolated few. Probably well over 100 locomotives are in steam at one time or another in the USA. Most are superheated engines, so the steam cylinder oil is specially compounded for the higher temperature service required. For a worm gear drive, I think a steam cylinder oil for "saturated steam service" is what's needed. The other remaining users of steam cylinder oils are deck windlasses and similar aboard oil tankers ( steam driven machinery is inherently explosionproof); steam piling hammers and the few remaining steam cranes- the real heavy lift cranes or "whirlies" which are mostly barge mounted.

I think Jim K will agree that the smell of steam cylinder oil around a working steam engine is one of the nicest smells. No mistaking the smell of warm steam cylinder oil, for sure.

Joe Michaels

Both Cone Drive & Boston Gear spec Mobil SCH-634 for their drive units.

http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lubes/PDS/GLXXENINDMOMobil_SHC_600.asp

JR

[This message has been edited by JRIowa (edited 06-03-2004).]

But JR, synthesized hydrocarbon lubricants such as Mobil SCH-634 were developed long after Van Norman developed their brake lathes.

John (who's grinnin' all friendly-like)