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09-06-2005, 04:32 PM #1
I was out yard saleing last weekend and was able to pick up an old Rockwell/Delta table saw for $20! It's been sitting for a while and it's not working, but it looks entirely restorable and should be a hell of a lot better than the old ryobi hand-me-down tablesaw i've got right now.
It is a small model (which is good for me) Looks like it might only take an 8" blade. It has a cast iron table and wings and looks like it might be from the 60's. It's castings have some markings, but as far as I can tell there is no model number or anything.
My plan is to clean up the rust, possibly replace the main ball bearings... though they seem to be running pretty well, and then reassemble, and get a motor for it. It is a belt drive, and the craftsman of the same era at the yard sale had an old 1/3hp 3450 rpm motor on it, so I was thinking I'd go for the same. One question is what size pulley to get for the new motor? Not really sure what sort of cutting speed would be ideal.
Any thoughts on how to find out what model i've got, or on pulley size/cutting speed would be much appreciated.
09-06-2005, 05:12 PM #2
I don't have a 8" TS, but all the 10" saws I have are a 1 to 1, so whatever the motor has, the arbor should have, with 3450 motors. I imagine that would work just fine on your 8" saw, although I guess the tooth speed would be a bit less since it's smaller.
You might want more umph than a 1/3, I'd put a 3/4 to 1hp motor with it.
Goto www.acetoolrepair.com, they've got all the Delta exploded parts diagrams online available as PDF files for free, and are a good source of parts to boot, if you need any.
Might try the Delta machinery yahoo group to help identify the model number to help save you from looking at a bazillion table saw exploded diagrams. Or try the owwm (old wood working machine) yahoo group (there's a link at owwm.com) to help id the model and approximate year. The owwm website has good info to help YOU get an idea how old it is.
09-06-2005, 06:14 PM #3
I have a homemade 8" table saw with a 1 HP motor on it, and it will easily bog on a heavy rip cut. Hence, I'd recommend nothing less than 1 HP, unless you're into building popsicle stick houses or such.
09-06-2005, 06:22 PM #4
Thanks Tools, I called the guys at Ace, and they helped me figure out that I've got a 34-500 8" tilting arbor saw.
Now there is one gotcha. There are 5 "jam" nuts on this thing and one of them is not coming un-done. Before I put my nut cracker on the thing I desided to see how much a replacement would cost. The nut is 5/8-20. Which seems to be a wierd thread. Ace wanted $36 a nut which seems a bit steep... McMaster doesn't have em.
Anyone heard of such a nut? Any idea where I could get a few for a reasonable price?
09-06-2005, 07:37 PM #5
I might have one, but I would have to look. Try shightly heating with a torch. Just hot enough so you can't hold your finger on it. Should be able to unscrew it then. Gary P. Hansen
09-06-2005, 10:43 PM #6
Two to three HP is a good size for the motor on that saw. Be sure to get a TEFC-motor instead of an open drip-proof (ODP). The reason is that the ODP motor self-destructs when used in table-saw service - the sawdust gets sucked right into the windings. The TEFC motor is internally cooled and made for this application.
A link belt will help reduce vibration (Fenner PowerTwist http://www.fennerindustrial.com/prod...twist_ind.html ) Solid cast-iron sheaves on the motor & the saw arbor also help (Browning http://tinyurl.com/86aoa )
Belt drive saws have a limited amount of clearance between the saw arbor & the underside of the table - most use a sheave that's about 3" diameter. Raise the saw arbor to the highest setting and measure the distance from the top of the saw arbor to the bottom of the table, then add half the diameter of the arbor. The result is the radius of the largest sheave you can put on the arbor.
The rip fence is always the weakest part of any saw, and Biesemeyer makes one of the best replacements. I bought mine on their "closeout specials" website http://biesemeyer.com/specials/index.htm You'll want to check this every few days as the items available change rapidly.
I'd make the nuts you need - MSC stocks the 5/8 - 20 hand tap. http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNSRIT?PMAKA=04846143
09-07-2005, 01:02 AM #7
I have a 34-500 8" and a 34-600 9".
Check out http://www.owwm.com/ for "old woodworking machines". Site navigation there leaves something to be desired but they have loads of good info.
09-07-2005, 01:38 AM #8
"Now there is one gotcha. There are 5 "jam" nuts on this thing and one of them is not coming un-done. Before I put my nut cracker on the thing I desided to see how much a replacement would cost. The nut is 5/8-20. Which seems to be a wierd thread. Ace wanted $36 a nut which seems a bit steep... McMaster doesn't have em."
I think your 8" Delta saw is the same one I use for cutting plastic and aluminum.
Where are the jam nuts? And why do you need to remove them?
09-07-2005, 05:42 PM #9
Thanks for the responces guys.
I guess I don't really need to remove the one that is stuck, but in general, the backlash for the vertaical blade adjustment seems to be set by rotating an odd sort of off-set bored bushing that will holds the worm gear shaft. It is locked in place by one of these fancy jam nuts. I got that one off no prob, so I can adjust my backlash, but this other one probebly doesn't really need to come off. Just sort of want to clean the whole think up and make it look like new and there is some rust that is going to be much easier to get to with the thing appart than together. I'm going to leave it together though given that these nuts are so valuable.
I was heating it with a torch. Not getting it though? Thanks for the offer of a new nut. If you've got one and don't need it, I'd love to have it. If not, I'll probebly just leave the thing in place and not worry about it.
Thanks for the hook up, that manual is great!
I use the powertwist belts exclusivly. I love them for their convenence and durablity. I had no idea that they helped to dampen virbation!
From the manual that Dean hooked me up with it seems that the blade wants to spin at 3850 rpm which is 8100 sfm.
The stock saw came either with a 3/4 hp 3450 rpm motor and a 2 1/2 inch pulley, or with a 1/2 hp 1725 rpm motor with a 5 inch pulley.
Sounds like I'd bee better off with a 2 hp motor, but would it better vibration wise to go for a 1725 or a 3450? I would sort of think that the 1725 would be better virbrationally, but it probebly mainly comes down the quality of the motor. Thoughts?
I will get a cast iron pulley for the motor end.
Also, thanks for the tip on the biesemeyer fences. They are great fences, and I am now in the market for a great fence as I now have a saw that is worth it! (woo hoo!)
09-07-2005, 07:19 PM #10
Another good source for Biesemeyer fences is Redmonds, of Atlanta GA. They've got scratch, dent and closeout specials on them that are hard to beat.
09-08-2005, 02:23 AM #11
Given the choice, the 1725 RPM motor will last twice as long (measured by B10 Bearing Life standard). It will probably vibrate less as well.
If you're really fanatical about vibration, you can order Baldor motors with special factory balancing. Standard motor balance specs leave lots to be desired - the special balancing adds about $100 to the motor cost. Any large motor shop that handles Baldor can order this for you.
Since you're going this far, you may want to consider which blade to use. Test after test, the Forrest blades http://www.forrestblades.com/ always come out on top. After trying every blade on the market, Forrest is all I use on the table saw, both chop saws, and the radial saw. Forrest blades will usually indicate less than +/- .001. Most other blades do well to indicate five times that amount.
Forrest also offers the best resharpening service I've ever found. Really a fine company staffed by people who take pride in what they do.
09-08-2005, 03:07 AM #12
Now for that pesky contrarian view...
While there may be some satisfaction when the tablesaw is restored to be able to tell friends and neighbors "yep, only paid 20 dollars for this puppy", the sad reality is by the time you add a proper fence and proper motor, and consider your time, you'd be better off just to throw it in the scrap heap and buy a $500, 10 inch, 1.5 hp, with nice Beismeyer type fence, from Grizzly brand new ! (well ok, another 82 bucks for shipping)
I mean it's one thing to restore a fine toolroom lathe that one bought for 200 bucks, with the end result restored machine being the equivalent of a new one that might cost $8,000, but to spend all that time and effort to restore a $20 tablesaw, when the end result will be a $350 tablesaw, seems a bit silly.
Now if it was a relatively rare and fine little table saw, like an 8 inch Wallace, it would be a whole nuther ballgame. A Wallace would be worth the effort. But old Delta 8 inchers never were all that great in the first place, and the woods is full of 'em...so I say chuck it.
09-08-2005, 03:24 AM #13
Any idea how old a Delta tilting table saw would be? Its a 10", mounted on a common stand with a 6" jointer, and both are driven by a double shaft motor that mounts down below on a shelf on the stand. My dad has it, and my grandfather had it before I was born, so that would make it pre-50, but I was wondering when they actually made them. Dad hates it, but I kinda like the tilting table feature as long as I'm not cutting full sheets of plywood on it.
09-08-2005, 03:29 AM #14
As you know, Don, some of us do this stuff to stay out of bars, economics be damned! There may be as much fun in the "doing" as in the end result.
09-08-2005, 03:34 AM #15
Cliff, I don't know when they stopped making that combo with the tilt table on the saw, but it was available in the late 1930's (if it really matters to you I could research and find out the aprox last year it was offered)
Why do you like the tilt table...because it's a PITA and makes you feel more "crafty" or something ?
rk, I understand...I *love* restoring machines...but pick your machines....don't just restore "anything"
09-08-2005, 03:37 AM #16
IMHO one could duplicate the Biesemeyer design fairly easily...it's just ERW (seam welded) square tubing, some adjustment pads, and a cam-lock lever device. Of course easier if you already have access to one.
I'd strongly consider scaling one down from a Unisaw or PM66 as the design is nice and rigid and very repeatable.
Buy a stick-on scale, and possibly have to buy the hairline plastic pointer...or scribe and polish your own.
Nice little shop project
09-08-2005, 03:54 AM #17
I guess I like it because gravity helps keep the board against the fence, so it always worked okay for me. Your comments sound like my Dad's. He swears the only reason they put the saw on the stand was to add some weight so the jointer wouldn't walk around I've got a 10" Delta Contractor's Saw myself, and it ain't nothing to write home about. My brother in law bought a similar size Jet for about the same price as my Delta, and it's got a much better fence and runs about as smooth as my Dad's Unisaw. Much better saw for the money, IMO.
09-08-2005, 03:37 PM #18
A proper 8 inch saw...
J.D. Wallace & Co was located in Chicago and made a full line of "portable" woodworking machines...including The Electric Woodworker...an "all in one" machine that is likely where ShopSmith got the idea for their version many years later.
Note the "light socket" connection for the standard single phase motor. Funny to remember there was a time when there were no "wall outlets" yet as the only thing electricity was "for" was lights ! I remember my grandmother, even in the 1980's, called her power bill, her "light" bill [img]smile.gif[/img]
09-08-2005, 04:47 PM #19
Thank you so very much for sharing your extensive knowledge of older machinery. Your post about the No. 8 Wallace saw was very interesting.
Mom and dad used to pay the light bill. The house I was born and raised in had knob and tube wiring, which had a bare bulb hanging on a cord from the center of the ceiling in almost every room. Any electrically powered item was plugged into an adapter screwed in above the bulb.
09-08-2005, 04:59 PM #20
I think Billy's on the right track. Pretty much did all the same stuff to my ancient Sears Craftsman 10", right down to the B'meier fence & the Forrest blade. IMO, the old Delta is at least as good - maybe better - than my old Sears.
If my saw didn't do everything so well, I'd get a Unisaw, General, or Powermatic 66. Maybe when it finally wears out, I'll do that. But it just keeps on cutting, mostly four-quarter and six-quarter red oak & black walnut.
Old machinery is a lot like my '91 Harley ElectraGlide - no reason to replace it unless something MUCH better comes along - and that hasn't happened yet.