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Hand Scraping

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Where can you get hand scrapers, and what style is best for working on mill ways? Also, what are some good resources for learning this skill? I have read a bit on this technique, but I am interested in learning more. Thanks.
 
Hello,
I'd also like to get some info on this. Any videos out there? Lindsay's books had a nice modern book on it, but I had other priorities at that time and I don't believe they are offering it now!

Thanks
Richard Jensen
 
At the risk of igniting the whole scraping firestorm all over again, check out this:

http://www.machinerepair.com/

The book and video are the best hand scraping references I've found so far.

[This message has been edited by TakMan800 (edited 07-16-2004).]
 
An expensive ($90 plus) book is Machine Tool Reconditioning. The author has some ideas on how to do things that I could not make work, but it will give you a great appreciation for what is involved. There is far more to it than just scrapers. You need "spotting tools" to tell you where to scrape and you need to develop a fine anylytical ability to judge your progress. Just "reading" the marks a spotting tool makes is an acquired skill. This is absolutely necessary to achieving a flat surface that hase been "scraped straight down". Scrapers have been made from old files. Anderson Brothers and Sandvik both make hand scrapers. I used to try to make HSS blades do something, but never really made any progress until I switched to carbide. To properly sharpen these (something repeated OFTEN) you need a 1200 grit diamond wheel that does not turn very fast kept wet with kerosene.

John
 
Here's something I wrote for Village Press to get you started:

Forrest Addy's Take on Scraping

First of all, don't even think about any form of plate glass as a scraping reference. Granite flats are typically 2" to 4" thick for a good reason. Glass is among the stiffest of our common materials but if thin it will still flex under load.

Scraping is back breaking work. Unless you're young and fit and have a strong back you'll wish you were long before the scraping job is done.
The tools are simple and not that expensive. A $40 import granite flat (glass will not work - no texture), a couple of good second cut 12" square files with handles, a 2" - 3" long stencil or rubber ink roller from the art supply store, some old mill files ground to make scrapers, a bench grinder and an oil stone - plus a $4 tube of Prussian blue from the auto parts store. Oh yes, plenty of rags and hand cleaner. Also have on hand a shop vac with an old hose to pick up the scrapings and filings. And a can of hand cleaner.

First an important message. Prussian blue is a pigmented transfer medium. Be aware of your fingers when they are smudged with Prussian blue. You will have visible evidence of their progress between initial smudge and realization all over your shop. One smudge on your finger will transfer to the light switch, your shirt, your nose, your ear, the back of SWMBO's silk blouse when you smooch her "thank you" you for the coffee she fetched. Wherever there's a smudge is another transfer-to-finger waiting to happen. Prussion blue is communicable like the plague.

The granite flat (Many call them "granite surface plates" but to me a surface plate is cast iron and made to be portable. Somehow I can't get past my training: to me the granite gizmo that does the same thing as a cast iron surface plate is called a flat.) is available from Enco Mfg. 1-800-873-3626 or www.use-enco-.com. Their Model 640-120 for $39.96 12" x 18" flat may seem largish for a small shop but it's long enough diagonally to rework most machine slides with a minimum of overhang. A little overhang properly addressed poses no problem to final flatness.

You can get import granite flats for about the same price from most any catalog site serving machine shops. MSC, Travers, tec.

10" and up mill smooth flat files are the best starting point for home made scrapers. Any junky old thrift store file will work. Dust off the worst of the teeth with an angle sander and provide it with a handle.

Advance to the bench grinder. Holding the file at a 5 degree (roughly) angle to plane of rotation and using the side of the wheel, remove the teeth for 5/8" back from the tip. Then grind an arc on the end of the scraper using the wheel periphery. The arc should be about the same as the rim of a 3 lb coffee can. Stone both surfaces smooth but leave a sharp intersection. You've made what amounts to a chisel with a 95 degree edge.

There are superb storebought carbide scrapers on the market. I suggest the hand scraper sold by the Dapra corporation (http://www.dapra.com/html/biax.htm) but they are expensive ($90 to $150 depending). The home shop typically doesn't have diamond sharpening equipment. If you know a rock hound having lapidary equipment consider him a scraper sharpening resource. A keen carbide scraper outlasts carbon steel about 100 to 1 (I'd almost swear). If you can fit a carbide scraper in your budget and you have several projects to justify it, I'd reccomend the purchase - or make one.

Here's a flat statement: you cannot satisfactorily sharpen a carbide scraper on a green silicon carbide wheel. The edge micro-chips and the effects of the crumbled edge will show in the ugly appearance of the scraped surface and the sweat dripping from your brows and elbows. Only diamond abrasives work well on carbide.

Carbide stones remarkably easy on those flat diamond plated stones such as those made by DMT and Norton...

Carbon steel doesn't last long scraping. It will dull rapidly. Resign yourself to touching up the edge every few minutes.

Work prep. Remove all rust from the work surfaces (rust EATS!!! scrapers and files).

The first step is filing. A second cut file removes metal much faster than scraping. Note the square file has a "belly" a convex portion. It will allow you to concentrate filing the high metal. Position the work so it's mid-forearm high. Glide the file over the aurface to see of there's anything sticking up. Scraping and filing is a task involving all the senses and lends itself to a Zen-like contemplation.

Apply six or eight 1/8" dabs of blue on the plate and spread them with the ink roller. Vacuum clean the work and apply it to the flat. Never apply the flat to the work if its clamped in a vise. The force of the vice jaws will spring it a trifle and you'll end up with a work that's concave. be careful you don't rock the work on the flat. You can scrape a perfect convex if your're careless when taking a "print".

There will be a few smudges of blue on the bottom. File out only the blue using the belly of the file. Refresh the blue with the roller. Take another print and file out the blue. File crossways to the first strokes. Proceed for up to several evenings until the work shows a scatter of blue patches all over. Sooner or later you'll discover just how hard to file (don't rub the file on the work, make it cut) and just where.

As work progresses the transferred blue will fade. You'll need to roll out more dots of blue to the flat every now and then. How much is a judgment call. Gain the skill.

Cleanliness is important. a single filing chip or piece of lint will screw up a blue reading (called a "print". Get a foot switch for the shop vac. If you see flecks of metal stuck in the blue, wipe the flat clean and re-blue. Use that shop vac and keep the scraping area clean. I've seen scraping benches that looked like a coal cellar. The work produced there was poor and expensive. Clean is cheap.

Proceed with the scraper. Practice a little on scrap cast iron until you can predictably make little flaky chips and nice parallel scrape marks. You'll soon learn to tip the scraper this way and that to catch blue spots not quite in line and to relax the downward force so the scraper's edge glides across low metal without cutting. You'll also learn to consciously relax your shoulders and neck. The little short controlled movements required for scraping force you to oppose one muscle groups with other muscle groups. Persist and your whole shoulder girdle and lower back will become one big knot you'll have to stew loose in the hot tub.

It does no good to rub the blue off with the scraper. You have to apply enough force and effort to remove metal. The skill is acquired through skill and practice. Make chips and study them through a 10X loupe. When old timers hand scraped for stock removal the powdery cast iron fountained 3" above the scraper but we're looking for control just now.

After scraping, lightly stone the work with lighter fluid (evaporates quickly, has a low latent heat, and helps keep the stone free from pinning) to remove any raised burrs. Clean the work with a rag and lighter fluid. Let it evaporate and give the scraped work surface another rub on the refreshed blue. Scrape some more from another direction. I like to scrape from two or three directions; each in rotation.

A Norton made, 2" x 5" fine India stone is an invaluable aid. When new they're too sharp. Condition one side by rubbing it on 220 wet or dry. Be sure to clean it. Tramp abrasive is worse than scraping crumbs.

Some of you may be alarmed at using flammible stuff like lighter fluid as a cleaning agent. I can only say it's the best solvent I've found. It's flammibility is balanced by its other properties mentioned above plus the stuff I prefer, "Ronsonal" in the yellow bottles, has little propensity to rust cast iron.

There's a time element as well. Lighter fluid evaporates in seconds and doesn't carry away much heat from the work. It's a major time-saver. Lacquer thinner is harsh on the hands and has a higher latent heat. Plan on waiting up to 30 minutes for mineral spirits paint thinner to evaporate and an hour for real Stoddard solvent. Flammibility isn't a real issue in my shop. I don't smoke, I'm careful with rags, and my scraping area is well ventillated.

Water based cleaners have a high latent heat of evaporation. They cool the work causing it to go concave - meaning as you work you'll scrape more than necessary off the ends of the work. When the work reaches thermal equalibrium. I once used a water based machine cleaner while scraping a 60" precision straight edge. Worked great!!! But: the next morning the straightedge had reached thermal equalibrium. My first check against the master flat showed the straight edge turned 0.0060" convex over-night. It was the cooling effect of the water based cleaner that did it. If you don't think water based cleaner won't have an effect on the scraping of a little old machine tool slide, try it and report back.

Proceed with scraping until all the file marks disappear and you get 4 spots per square inch. If you're careful with heat input at the final stages, and you scrape with a keen edged scraper, final flatness will be equal to the granite flat you're using. A small import flat is typically in the 0.0002" to 0.0003 range of a geometric plane.

I wouldn't suggest you lap out the scraper marks when done. For one thing there a belief that the slightly interrupted surface results in lower working friction. I believe this to be true but I have no numbers to support it except a maybe little less sweat. For another thing, a hand scraped surfacee is a bragging point and a handsome feature in its own right.

Precision scraping is a skill best learned under the guidance of a mentor but a crafty individual can discover most of the tricks for himself after getting a push in the right direction.
 
Forrest:

What do you think about a "burr file" instead of a stone for cleaning up after a pass of scraping? I seem to do better with one than with stoning after scraping.

What I mean as a "burr file" is a short piece of a file that has had its teeth flattened just a bit on an oilstone. Only cuts things that stick up, won't dig in (like a thread file, but for flat things).
 
Forrest:

Wondeful wisdom in your last post, as always.

Regarding muscles and youth as requisites for scraping, I learned how to do it Japanese style while working for one of the builders. They use a scraper that's about a foot long, with a carbide tip and a tang like a file. This gets inserted into a simple wood handle about 2 feet long. The butt end is placed against a wadded-up rag on your waistline, held by one hand, while the other hand guides the blade. This allows the strong hip, leg, and butt muscles to do most of the thrusting work. It looks silly, but after the joke wears off, you can really see the results. The trick is to position the work (or your body)comfortably. I'll try to post a pic of this.

Finally, Dykem Hi-spot Red is a lot less messy, IMHO. They also used some kind of spotting red that had the consistency of the red stuff that goes on top of Bondo, before painting, whatever that was called.
 
Many new files are only case-hardened
and do not make good scrapers.

The ones sold by McMaster Carr work pretty
well but expect to pay 50-100 dollars. It's
worth it if you are serious about this.

I like to wear nitrile gloves when spotting
and scraping for the prussian blue issue.

And lastly - are you really really sure
I can't use a piece of window glass for
my reference flat? My brother-in-law/boss/
teacher/friend/father etc. said it would
be *just* fine! LOL.

Jim
 
While your looking through your mcmaster carr catalog to find a file to grind and make a scraper go ahead and go to the page where they sell scrapers and get the 18" tubular shaped scraper. Also, I prefer to use canode brand bluing - blue and red (they are water soluble).
 
here's a collection someone has made of my answers to scraping questions posted on a wood site. Forrest is there, too.

http://www.geocities.com/plybench/scrape_posts.html#smt_basic

It is the basic stuff, how to scrape to a flat, not much on alignments. But encouragement for getting in and shoveling off the material.

Richard King has a great, professionally produced tape on getting started and the physical motions of manipulating and powering the scraper, both hand scrapers and a biax. Again, though, basics and flats, not too much on alignments.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=26220&item=3826970856&rd=1

For anyone serious, _Machine Tool Reconditioning_ is the essential work.

smt
 
When I was in trade school for Industrial Machine Maintenance we used an Anderson scraper. It was slow and tedious work on an old Sheldon lathe bed, but it worked. We also had a Swiss made electric scaper and some old home made file scrapers. The Anderson had nice blades that held a good edge and a nice "feel".
Luke
 
Hand scrapers are bone easy to make if you have basic silver brazing skills.

Take a piece of 3/16" x 1" flatbar (cold rolled steel rectangular stock is more convenient) about 16" to 20" long and make a tang on it like a files. Drive on a standard wood file handle. This makes the scraper shank.

Get some C-2 carbide blanks 1/8 x 1/4 x 1" from MRC or equal. Using a stone remove the soft oxide from the carbide surfaces you wish to wet with silver. Remove the scale on the shank. Braze the blank's 1/8" edge to the 3/16" thick tip of the scraper shank as a butt joint trying to keep it straight and centered. That can be tricky without some fixturing.

Using a 220 grit or finer diamond wheel grind a 3" to 5" radius on the end of the carbide with a double bevel having a 93 degree intersection angle.

A 3 lb coffee can makes an radius excellent gage.

Bada-bing, you made a carbide hand scraper for $10. I've made dozens of them over the years but I keep giving them away.

And yes hand scraping can be slow expecially if only the blue gets rubbed off. Take a cut!

If you're roughing down make every stroke count. Scraping swarf should look like little black cornflakes and ever stroke of the scraper should raise a tiny dust cloud.

It takes some judgement to know how hard to work at scraping given a particular desired stock reduction so you don't go too far. That's why you practice on scrap pieces - so you know when to raise a dust cloud and when to be sedate and careful.

[This message has been edited by Forrest Addy (edited 07-17-2004).]
 
read an article from a connesseur who made 3 flat plates by scraping them and blueing the plates in turn. the using 3 plates to avoid makeing one hollow a sphere shaped plate. he claimed that this works an you don't need a flat reference.
something else, saw a new chinese mill weighing around 220 lbs price with scraped ways. price about $1000. what is to be expected from this scraping. did their millingmachine break down and continue their job by scraping.other mills whithin this pricerange have very coarse ways. it looks like it they have a bearingsurface that is only half of what it could have been. doesn't this endorse wear right on the travers where you use it the most and leaving you with tight spots after adjusting. i think adjusting just a little bit and you will be milling banana shaped object all the time. cheers.
 
Sure you can make your own surface plates.

Anyone who's ever priced out what a halfway
decent commercial surface plate actually
costs would never do it however.

In this case, "connesdeur" is merely a
synonym for 'dumb person.'

Jim
 
I bought connelly's book along with all the rest of the people who got in on that deal. I origionally used a piece of plate glass 3/8 thick. I used that until I got a routine down, I had to use the same spot everytime or the readings would change, also like Forrest said, keeping everything clean was a challenge. Even putting the plate on one bench and scraping on my other bench I was still scratching the glass and getting grit in the compound.I traced this to my rags. I prefer to use my fingers to spread the compound, that way I can feel any grit. I didn't think about using a vaccume cleaner, I will from now on.I made a scrapper using Connelly's instructions, it turned out pretty good. Just my .02
Larry
 
than this means, mr Rozen, that since even chinese people don't work for peanuts you can't expect to much from these scraped ways. but must still be cheaper than using a quality mill or it is about making the customer beleaving it is a quality product.
how about using a carbide insert of a handheld electric planer?
 
I'm not quite sure how to answer dot's
question. All I can say is, I've seen
photos of machine plants in china. Never
did see a home-made surface plate in any
of them.

Commercial ones, yes.

Jim
 
Re dot's original question, there's got to be a way to generate a reference flat. It's easy to goto another commercially made reference flat but how did we get here in the first place?

The way is as instructed. 3 plates which are scraped A to B, B to C, and A to C until they all match within whatever tolerance is desired.

-Matt
 
Matt describes a process approved by NIST (formerly NBS) as producing intrinsically flat reference surfaces.

The autobiography of a mid to late 19th century steam engine manufacturer contains an excellent description of this process of scraping flat surfaces as well as how steel is made by the cementation process. I can't for the life of me recall the man's name. Alsheimer's gettin' to me.
 








 
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