What's new
What's new

Oxygen Bottle

rws

Cast Iron
Joined
Jul 14, 2003
Location
VA
Is there any way to refill an oxygen bottle used for a cutting torch other than taking it to the company which owns the bottle?

I picked up a set of bottles years ago on a construction job. I have used the acetelene, and now use propane. But the oxygen is about empty.

It seems that the gas suppliers only fill their own tanks, and you have to have an account set up. I don't use a torch that much, and don't want to pay the tank fee each year. Any help?
 
Find a different co. i buy my bottles from any auction i can find them at. I take them to any supplier and the exchange them. I had one bottle that they would not fill because it was a contracted bottle, i took it home stamped sold on it and brought it back the next time, and it was accepted. i used regular 1/8 letter punches.
 
You can own your own bottles and get them filled. Actually, here they exchange them. That is waht I do here in South Florida whenever I need gas. The problem comes if the bottle is marked as being owned by one of the gas supply companies. Then you have a bottle they consider their property, possibly stolen and will not fill it. I don't know how far they would go to attempt to keep the bottle.

If the bottles are not marked, you can get them filled by many gas suppliers, just call around. Find a place that will exchange bottles. That way you have a reciept to prove ownership next time and you get a bottle that is current as far as hydrostatic testing and inspection go.
 
Most of the welding supply houses have certain sets of bottles they will sell. They are not the same size as the ones they retain ownership of. This way they know immediately if its a customer owned bottle or not. If its a customer owned bottle they aren't worried about where you got it. If its one of their own bottles, they WILL keep it. Trying to press the issue will get you nowhere, as they are holding a bottle with their name on it and with records to show they've never sold that size bottle. What can happen is you can find yourself trying to explain to the law just where and how you got the bottle. No reputable gas supplier will refill a bottle with another supplier's name on it unless you can provide a receipt showing you purchased and own the bottle itself (not that you purchased contents at some time). In almost every instance, "owned" bottles are actually leased on a long term basis, varying from 20 to 50 years.
 
Due to the high thief of these bottles, there is a very large fine if they get caught with a bottle on their property that belongs to another company. I believe the fine is $5,000. per bottle. Needless to say, taking a chance on an unknown bottle isn't a good idea as far as they are concerned.
Indmachrep... disappointed in your actions, especially posting them here.
David from jax
 
It is better to have an account with a gas supplier, that way they get to know you and will fill the bottles that you bring in. I bought a set so long ago I can't remember and have boughten some at auction and they fill them with no questions asked.
As far as stolen bottles go, If you don't have a receipt from a company or the person that you bought them from they are stolen.
 
I did not say take someones property and scam a co. i said i buy a lot of bottles on auction several belong to co that do not exist in fl and some no longer in business. also i had 1 experiance and it was a co that no longer exist. from my understanding by praxair they said that this bottle would have to go to another location to be filled because it belong to anybody. he said if it was marked as sold we would exchange it, so i marked it like praxair told me. once again the bottle according to praxair did not belong to anyone. If you go to an auction most of the time they tell you (here) that they are selling the contents of the bottle and not the bottle its self. It is up to you to get them filled after. Please do not take what i said as a way to be deceatful.
 
On the other side of the coin you need to make sure your "bought" bottles stay bought. My first time I purchased a small set, at some point upgraded to a larger size and didn't use them for a year or so. When I went to have them filled the ones I had were rentals in a size they only rent and won't sell. I lost my original purchase price and the dealer was a little pissy because I had their rentals for so long. This was a case of neither me or the guy behind the counter knowing what they were doing when I did the upgrade. Another of those lessons you don't forget after getting bit in the wallet.
 
This has not been said yet so I feel
obligated to say it:

Do NOT refill the cylinders on your own,
from any other cylinders. It's not
clear that you were thinking of doing
this, but it is very, very dangerous.

Jim
 
that is another problem that comes up. switching out your bottle and not getting an owner tank back. I have heard of this but i spoke to another co here and they told me that if it has there name the switch it, the co gets billed for the rental and is charged for the lost bottle. when you bring it in you just pay for the content.
 
Out this way, small bottles (up to 80CF) are commonly owned, and are swapped out instead of refilled. Most of the 125CF and up are not sold in this area and refills are a bit of an ordeal. Nobody will touch them without paperwork - as in a receipt from a supply house, not from the guy who had the garage sale.
After enduring one hell of a paper chase, I have about 20 bottles of my own, that I have serviced by my local co.

One of the bottles was actually stolen from them. They said thanks for returning it and kept that one, and gave me another one of comparable size (an AC4 for a WS or the like)

They charge extra to fill the tanks and return them, instead of just swapping them out with other tanks in their system. Something like $6 per tank, per fill. I also pay for the hydro tests on out of data bottles. $18-22 per, every 10 years.
It is NOT cost effective to own the tanks, since they get about $20/yr for rent. I pay $6 more a fill (times however many fills a year) and then the recert fee every 10 years. PLUS I am without that tank for a week while it is filled. So you need more tanks, and the cycle continues.

With some of the more oddball gasses that I don't use that much of like 6N5 Argon or 5N Helium it's ok to own... But for the basics like welding-grade Argon, Oxygen, Acetylne it's silly.

I'd expect you'd be better off just going into a welding shop and trading these tanks in. Let's face it, these guys WANT to sell the gas. (Although there's probably more profit in the hazmat fees these days!
 
Trouble is the damn gas companies charge so much just for the rental and then hammer you for the refill.
It was the same here, you could own bottles and then ,hello, when they started to charge the earth for the right to rent they also began destroying owner bottles (under the pretext that they failed the test) to monopolise the market. It would be interesting to discover the proportion of their profit that comes from the rent alone. It is fast becoming uneconomic for the hobby user to rent, it is any wonder that people attempt to discover ways to avoid those costs.The gas companies appear to have no interest in the small user and that is a shame because the more expensive these costs become the less people will become involved in the innovative world of the home workshop where I believe a lot of expertise for industry is developed.

cheers

Ken NZ
 
Ken,
I am curious what some typical prices are for rentals and fills in NZ.

In the northeast corner of the US, rent on a tank will run about $15-25 a year. (USD, of course). Small tanks, ~40 - 60CF can be purchased for $100, and exchanged for empty.

What I found to be the real ripoff - er, profitmaker- was the prices charged for the smaller tanks of gas. Back in the day, I was getting 60CF of oxygen for $18. Since then I've had 125CF tanks filled for $20, and 330CF tanks filled for $23.

Trying to make sense out of that just about bent my brain in a knot.

If you had a small tank, and went through 3 a year, ($18 x 3 = $54) it was WAY cheaper to rent a big one ($20/yr + 23 fill = 43) and you've still got enough gas left in the tank to go another year and a half.
 
Bottle ownership IS a big deal for the gas suppliers. As are financial LOSSES due to theft of co owned bottles.

Just about any gas supplier has some stories about a dishonest (end user)person selling some other un-suspecting end user person a set of leased bottles (often times near the end of the lease period, when the lease payment is due). When the honest purchaser takes (what he thinks are his) bottles in for a refill, the Co says thanks for returning our property, AND you OWE us an additional lease payment.

The best cure for bad behavior on the part of gas suppliers is COMPETITION. Now, with 3 gas suppliers competing for business in this area (and a change in ownership of one TRADITIONALLY less than user friendly suppliers), privately owned cylinders are being looked upon with more favor.

Yes, if a cyl. DOES in fact fail the re-cert process, then the testing outfit should follow the FEDERAL regs, and mark the cyl. to prevent further use. And the testing does include a visual inspection. However, I have hear stories of company test facilities marking customer owned cyls. as FAILED without proper inspection (simply to remove them from service, and force welders into Co. LEASED cyls).

Any reputable cyl. testing outfit should provide you with a WRITTEN record of the cyl test results (by cyl S/N), PASS OR FAIL and WHY. If you have questions as to WHY a cyl. failed, get the WRITTEN documentation at the time you pick up the cyls. In fact, get the DOCs regardless PASS or FAIL. In the worst case, you then have something in writing in case of needing to file a law suit. If a tester has scrapped one of your cyls, AND is UNABLE or UNWILLING to provide written documentation as to the REASON for test failure or scrapping, you may have the basis for a claim against the tester.

My opinion is that leasing cyls. is simply BUYING cyls. for someone else. Unless gas cyls. are ABUSED (left sitting in wet, salty mud for years & badly pitted & rusted, dropped/dented, or other ), they should last for MUCH longer than the lease period. I personally have cyls. (which still pass cert.) that are more than 50 years old, and I expect to use them for another 20 years. Most cyl. leases are for 10 or 20 years.

A little research is in order whenever you are offered cyls. for sale by an unknown individual. You might save yourself some cash and law enforcement headaches.

If you have cyls. which you clearly own, you are responsible for getting them cert'ed (as required by date) prior to getting them re-filled. Most gas providers have their own facilities for this. However, these (in-house) facilities may not have YOUR best interests in mind when doing the cyl. testing & inspection. Most larger cities will have someone else who does testing of other HP gas bottles (say SCUBA tanks). Do some research & asking around. Then use the independent test outfit to do the re-certification & inspection. Then you can take your bottles to a gas supplier for a fill.

Many companies will also treat customers with accounts entirely differently than the person walking in off the street. Opening an account and buying some gas may help.

If you have a chance to buy a set of cyls from an individual, check the name on the cyl neck ring. If the name matches a local supplier, make a phone call & ask if the size cyls being offered are leased or sold by the co PRIOR to cyl purchase. If the co. is not local or nationwide, then check the most recent stamped cert date. Factor into your offering price for the cyls the cost of re-certification, and the possibility of cert failure. A purchased cyl. which fails cert is just an EXPENSIVE piece of scrap metal, which may be hard to dispose of.

Note that there are different specific regs dealing with HP gas cyls, acetylene cyls, propane/LPG cyls, etc. Do some research, become informed, and save yourself LOTS of headaches.
 
Indmachrep,
Ok, guess your back to the previous high standard that I thought you were. Just didn't want to think you were advocating doing something illegal.

On the subject of customer owned bottles not being a good deal... I guess to each his own. I did some work for a welding supply company, and in exchange for reduced rate for the work, I got free gas. However, I had to supply my own bottles. 15 years at no cost, for all the gas I could burn very easily paid for the bottles I bought. At one time, I had 47. Haven't sold any, but the number has dwindled to around 20. Too many friends who forget where the bottles go when they are empty.
David from jax
 
I went the other day with this topic in my head. I went to the office and said i had a cyl of oxygen. the cyl was painted blue by me to match a scheme at a show. The guy asked me the size and told me were to put it. when i got to my truck a new bottle was in. i said is this an owner tank. he said it s on the paper. they never check the bottle. he did tell me there are some letters stamed for owner but they do not always check. I really believe this is different not just in every stat or town but from place to place. I also see a lot of these tanks in the scrap yard that are good and recent. some places close and they send the tank to the yard. Never seen one getting crushed(KABOOOOM. Maybe they have a deal with returning bottles that are scraped.
 
In response to Damonfg here are some figures:

Fill -- Oxygen E- 2.4 m3 - $36.70
F- 3.8 m3 - $43.40
G- 8.61 m3 - $68.80

Acetylene E- 1.55 m3 - $70.71
F- 3.2 m3 - $101.11
G- 7.08 m3 - $167.65

Argon D 2.0 m3 - $67.03
F 5.0 m3 - $142.40
G 9.93 m3 - $264.30

Rental small bottle $11.07 / month / bottle
medium " $12.11 / " "
large " $12.72 / " "

Annual admin charge $20.50

A rental discount of 2% for quartely payments
" " " 5% " annual "

" " " 10% " 5 yearly " ?

I can do better than that disc using my own money, thanks.
Then you have to remember the average income is only something like $28k NZ/ year
How does that compare to your fees?

Size E -- 2.4 m3 = 84 ft3

Size F -- 3.8 m3 = 134 ft3

Size G -- 8.61 m3 = 304 ft3

Retest on owner bottles -- $67.50 / 10yrs and if the bottles fail the beggers take them off ya.

cheers bigears -- Ken N.Z :cool:
 
I took in a acytelene tank to be filled. A good friend gave it to me, he bought a few years ago.Company said thanks, I said "don't have your name on it, came from 100 miles away." He said " we grind them off all the time", never got it back. Crooks!
 
So then, from what I have gathered, I'm stuck with an empty tank that I will likely not find someone to refill.

I know it sounds kind of dangerous, but I was thinking of taking mine, and a full tank, standing them side-by-side, and piping them together. The regulators are brass fittings/pipe, so with two tank fittings, some length of pipe and a union, I could join the two. Slowly open the valves, and I would get about a half refill, once the pressures balanced out. This isn't feasable?

Thanks to all for the input.
 
Better do some research on Oxy. handling..........there is a very serious risk of an explosion if everything is not properly DEGREASED FOR OXYGEN SERVICE. That includes something as small as a thumbprint anywhere. Not a area for the casual DIYer!!! Bite the bullet and stay safe.
 








 
Back
Top