Advising newbies

In a recent post I found words I couldn't let pass (but with apologies) unchallenged: "Lots of good old iron out there." The trick is to find good old iron in usable condition - that is machine tools that are not worn out or abused to death. Restoring a machine tool as small as a Bridgeport using professional services can cost more money than a new comparable Lagun.

"They just dont cast iron like they used to." I should hope not. There have been many advances in casting design, metallurgy, and foundry technique in the last 40 years. It's better, stronger, and more stable.

These old aphorisms are often heard from crabby old guys and transmitted uncritically by their admirers. They do no good for the newbie seeking usable machines tools with which to equip his shop. He's a ready victim for bad advise because he can't distinguish it from good.

I've seen the results of this bad advice. An earnest but clueless newbie buys a couple of first quality but worn out machine tools like a Cincinatti Toolmaster and a 15" American Pacemaker. The machines are worn, shot, used up, parts are missing. Accessories are unavailable without heavy scrounging and great good luck.

Meantime, their mentors paw over the machines and help set them up drooling and praising "They don't make machines like this any more." No they don't; it takes 40 years of wear and neglect to make them that way.

The newbie tries to hold tolerances and breaks his heart because the machine tools he bought and made a heavy emotional investment in are nearly at the junk stage. They either need to be rebuilt or sent off for foundry scrap. But the newie has exhausted his funds pursuing another's dream and has become bitterly frustrated. He's done all the things his mentors said he should but he can't do good work on his machinery. He blames himself.

I've rescued a few of these guys. With a scraper and a couple hundred hours of hard work it's possible for a bulldog persistant newbie to resurrect a worn out machine. In the end he could have spent less money on better quality import machine tools and hit the ground running in his new trade.

Better lower end Asian Import machine tools have come a long way in quality, fit, and finish from 20 years ago. Remember in how people laughed in 1968 when Honda started making cars? Now they make the best cars in the world for the money.

Nothing remains stationary. It either grows or rots over time. This is as true in the low end consumer level machine tools as it is in the jungle. They are not yet perfect but they are improving as their makers respond to competitive and customer pressures.

I strongly urge those with influence to objectively consider their full responsibility and the real needs of the newbie before offering advise.

Forrest, that was very well written. I agree with you 100%.

I too.
Especially as a hobbiest, most of us have neither the skill/desire to breath life into a basket case.

Forrest,

I think you are only giving half the advice needed. Buyer be ware!!! I have sold about 50 lathes, a few near new and a lot of old ones and have seen more of the larger machines that are worn then the smaller machines. I have sold a new Emco gear head lathe that had more bent and miss machined parts on it then I would care to list and this was on a NEW machine. Price is a big factor in the process. For the right price any machine will do, but I think some pay too much at the get go and then are stuck with a stinker! I tell new buyer that there is a scale which starts at new then goes to used and then usable to just plain used up, avoid the later! It is hard to believe that a Monarch would ship a machine with the cross screw machined out of round by 60k, but I would take a Monarch 10EE with 15k backlash in the cross slide over the new import. Most American lathe that I sell can be taken apart clean and tuned a little and they will usually work close to new, but the imports I've seen would need machining and part replaced on them to be working right. Also, a few years down the road I can almost always find a part for a 10ee, Hardinge, Heady, Clusaing, South Bend, and Logan. When the import starts to get tired and it's time to sell, the seller will always take a big hit on the sales price. I look at the older American iron as a classic car and a import lathe as new cheap import car, both work but when it's time to sell the import is in the crusher and the classic is gets another resto on it.

I have sold a new Emco gear head lathe that had more bent and miss machined parts on it then I would care to list and this was on a NEW machine.

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I hope you mean to type Enco, not Emco.

Don,

It was a ENCO not the Emco,

New, but what a Piece!

As a noob, I sincerely appreciate sound advice, good advice from someone that knows. I take it to heart.

I've looked a lot and asked from sellers, no buying yet. The reason: I can't lay my grubby paws on it and check. Specs are often quoted straight out of the "lathe book". It means nothing to me concerning a used machine except "general" specs for speeds, feeds, what it's SUPPOSED to be capable of.

My questions are ususally about the machine condtion; gears, ways, general wear kinda stuff. The replies I recieve are the same spec sheets. That just ain't much help in terms of some of the nebulous replies I recieved. I don't do RFQ, that's a "whatever the market will bear" price

It's a big chunk of change and I urge caution, the buying a used car kind. So let your money burn a hole in your pocket, that's no crime. "Gotta have it now" will hurt you more than a little patience and a lot of looking.

OK, so you're 10 years late buying a used machine of your choice. So what's a few more months gonna hurt?

Don't forget that you still have to tool the machine($), move it($), provide power($). Think about the logistics of it ALL.

Patience is a good thing, but it can be overdone
Dobber

Forrest, I will agree with you around 75%
I think you must qualify "Asian Import"
Japanese products are top quality, I think
a lot of Taiwanese products are running a
close second. But Chinese?????? I have an
Enco mill, I am the second owner, the previous
owner, my friend's employer let it sit in the
corner and barely used it. It's near new and
I have repaired it numerous times, It probably
has 200 hours on it max and I would gladly
swap it for a 70's model Bridgeport that
someone threw off a cliff! Parts fall off that
thing when no one is in the shop! Forrest, I
hope you aren't recommending that people
shop at Harbor Freight for machine tools,
ooops I used the HF word,.............Bob

Forrest -

I only wish I'd had the benefit of your online advice when I acquired my first lathe nearly two decades ago. An old friend said, "not to worry, I'll find you a nice old Southbend." Nice, it may have been, but that would have been quite some time before I finally picked it up, sight unseen. Having committed to it, and lacking storage for a while, I paid him and picked it up some months later at his place. After wrestling it into my own shop and cleaning it up, I discovered I was WAY out of my element trying to rebuild it to some semblance of workability. Just the thought of dealing with the headstock bearings alone was enough to keep me from proceeding. I had absolutely no machining experience, but at least I was aware enough that I had no business tackling this beast.

After passing the SB along at a loss of $$, I bought a used 1980 vintage Taiwanese machine from a friend who'd been using it for about 15 years (lightly) since it was new, and he was willing to get me up and running on it. This lathe is clearly a shadow of a Southbend, but it hadn't been run to death or abused, so it worked well for my limited use.

I think you're absolutely right. So many "old timers" have either forgotten what it was like getting started or not experienced life as an adult beginner. It's one thing to have the benefit of formal training starting at school, but very different to be learning a new skill set when you have a real adult life to live with all its responsibilities.

I talk to adult beginners every day and try to make sure I'm give appropriate recommendations. Experienced players can handle pretty much anything, but the newbie needs a playable instrument. It's hard enough learning new skills without having to fight the gear!

I have to agree with Forrest. A very well written post and a bit overdue on these pages.

Let me preface my post by saying I aboslutely LOVE old iron. My first job in a machine shop at 15 years old was restoring and rebuilding old Landis pipe and bolt threading machinery. These were amazingly overbuilt machines, many were originally lineshaft equpiment from the turn of the century to around the WWII period. Rescrape the ways, shim the gibs, strip and repaint, sometimes fabricate some type of motor mount and belt guard, adjust the spindle babbets, rebuild die head, etc. Just your good old fashioned low tech chicken coupe shop.

But as much as I love and admire the old iron and even more the inginuity that went into some of them, they are often no longer in a state where they are practical for real world use.

I think machinery guys are like car guys. You have your collector type, the guys who restore a 32 Ford and take it out on the occational weekend, maybe do the occational stoplight challenge with a Mustang then pack it in after an hour or two. It's old, it's cool, it's fun, it attractions attention, although it doesn't quite do much as good as a newer car. It doesn't handle as good, stop as good, or go quite as fast.

On the other side you have your hardcore racers. Admires and appreciates the old cars but uses his vehicle for a purpose. All other things aside, it's straight to the point. No window dressing here. It works so it goes on the car. Unpainted cowl hood. Gutted interior. Slick tires and a positraction rear. Headers, 3" dual exhaust, and a bottle of giggle gas in the trunk just in case.

I think that is something that we need to seperate sometimes on this forum. For the collector that likes to toy around with his antiques sometimes, old iron can't be beat. But for day to day realistic work, a new, straight machine with a warranty and parts availability will pay the bills month after month. Also, a newbie looking to get into machining probably does not need a restoration project, unless of course, that's what he/she is looking for. Of course, that puts him into the collector catagory not the user catagory.

This isn't to say there aren't a lot of collector/users out there, and there isn't old iron that's in immaculate shape, but collectively we have to start looking at the users REAL goals for a machine before automaticly saying "you need good, old iron...". Finding a 1957 16" lathe with a collet holder, accurate 3 jaw, and straight ways is not an easy task. Then get parts for it WHEN it breaks.

Holy Cow!! Armageddon must be near!!!!! Forrest; Do you have a fever??

My apologies, another fracas is not what is intended here. All Sarcasm aside. I have said this same thing over and over since I joined this excellent forum.

Only to be repeatedly "Dope Slapped Down" by the majority; but receiving a "Back Channel" here and there from a few of the finer folk here. No, No names, lest I besmirch the reputation of good people.

Now Forrest utters the words and the masses appear! Which I applaud! But? Where where you when the newbie ask the same question for the umpteenth time and was flatly told to do a search as "We" didn't feel like explaining it again.

Or told that this forum was not even intended for him in the first place!

Mr. Addy, Forrest; after the disappointment of our most recent encounter, you have again EARNED my respect! Stepping forward to lay out the truth, as ugly as it may be, but reality none the less.

My Heart simultaneously sank and my Blood Pressure rose, and my stomach grew Butterflies as I read the lines:

The newbie tries to hold tolerances and breaks his heart because the machine tools he bought and made a heavy emotional investment in are nearly at the junk stage. They either need to be rebuilt or sent off for foundry scrap. But the newbie has exhausted his funds pursuing another's dream and has become bitterly frustrated. He's done all the things his mentors said he should but he can't do good work on his machinery. He blames himself.

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And I will add the words of Mr. Ford:

I think you're absolutely right. So many "old timers" have either forgotten what it was like getting started or not experienced life as an adult beginner. It's one thing to have the benefit of formal training starting at school, but very different to be learning a new skill set when you have a real adult life to live with all its responsibilities.

I talk to adult beginners every day and try to make sure I'm giving appropriate recommendations. Experienced players can handle pretty much anything, but the newbie needs a playable instrument. It's hard enough learning new skills without having to fight the gear!

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More true words were never spoken.

And the hammer falls:

I strongly urge those with influence to objectively consider their full responsibility and the real needs of the newbie before offering advise.

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Now it will be interesting to watch and see if the advise and wisdom of experience will be heeded or rejected or simply ignored. Time will tell.

Forrest, I don't pretend to know what prompted you to write this eloquent tome but I will join the others in saying:

Forrest, that was very well written. I agree with you 100%.

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Take Care, Respects, Ken

As a progressing newbie in training, I can relate to this on several levels.

I have a Grizley 9x20. I hear they are a cut above the HF and cheaper versions of the identical same lathe, and the certainly have above average service for the breed. Over all I am VERY happy with it and it was the "gateway drug" that started my decent into Hell. It had some issues like less than good compound mount along with brass for a bushing in the clutch idler. But after fixing those I, in my newbie ignorance, feel it did rather well and I very much enjoyed it. However, I am interested in automotive sized things and the “9” in 9x20 should not be misconstrued to indicate you can actually turn 9” steel with any significant measure of success. It also lacks the “feel” I rather like in my Bridgeport acquired after the Griz.

I now have a Rockwell 11x37 with, as far as I can tell, very little wear, though needing a few (I think) minor repairs. It is no longer supported by any company and parts, though they used many standard off the shelf items like gears, may prove difficult or impossible to buy and require scrounging or making to keep it running. I went into that with my eyes open and have so far been pleasantly surprised after on an initial end to end cleaning. Next I must tear into the head stock and carriage to fix some minor issues that seem relatively straight forward. As tight as this lathe is, and it’s been looked over by several who are far from “newbie” and who verified it as a prime example of a very good machine for any use, I expect to have a good example of quality “old iron” running in my shop soon for far less than a “good quality” Asian import lathe of the same basic capacity. It sure has that “feel” I like, and the spindle hole I felt I “needed”, but it’s a bit of a gamble and took a fair amount of luck as well as “networking” with everyone I knew in the local machine community to dig this out of a PILE (and I mean that in the strongest derogatory sense) of sloppy crap wore out machines who’s owners assured me in glowing terms that they were the “tightest they had ever seen” as well as other gross inaccuracies that were clear once you looked past the glowing halo of “fine old iron”...

Ken, IIRC Forrest has been advocating that for at least as long as I've been reading PM.

I looked to find an earlier post, but with Forrest's large number of posts and search limited to 300 hits, I couldn't find it.

But I'm pretty sure he's been of the "a new adequate machine is probably better for most newbies than a high quality clapped-out machine" for quite some time.

cheers,
Michael

While I also agree with the consensus, its all too easy to obsess about defects in old iron. Crossfeed backlash and bed wear are easily measured and easily overemphasized. Just because the cross feed has .040 of backlash and the carriage can be made to bind by snugging the holddowns and traversing towards the tailstock doesn't mean an old lathe is a loss- just it has routine wear.

Clearly more extreme examples of that sort of thing are often seen in basketcases but there is a wide latitude. If the choice is a somewhat worn "classic" machine vs a new Grizz, I'd put the choice down to the complement of tooling and accessories of the classic machine. Tailstocks, taper attachments, etc can be effectively impossible to find, which will make an otherwise reasonable machine more or less unusable. .040 of crossfeed backlash won't.

I'd say any newb inclined towards the old iron would be well served by jumping into the South Bend/Logan/Atlas end of the pool and not stepping up on an expensive machine which could all too easily go along the lines Forrest described. If the old iron bug bites and the SB is no longer providing the needed fix, then the newb will be into the hoary old L&S's and Monarch's and American's from a more realistic perspective.

My ATW had all the signs of being a mess but most of them were more or less superficial and once mitigated the machine has turned out pretty well. Its no toolroom machine, but then I'm no machinist either, so its a good match for some time yet. That said, I had many doubts during the 5 or so months of slaving over the carcass before I could spin it up and start working with it. I'm glad I took the chance on the machine but I think I'd hesitate to take on as big a fixup project again.

Regards,

Greg

Yes Forrest has always advocated that and for the right reasons.I prefer the american machines but I am in the right area to find them that still have alot of life left and if I wasnt I would have probably bought imported stuff.
There is no shame in buying what you can afford or what is available.

If you guys feel I'm insulting Forrest I'd suggest you re-read my post. Because you are sadly mistaken. Proof does not need to be provided to show he has not "changed his story." I fully support him.

You may have mistaken the slight jab at the beginning as disrespect. Not so, it was humor meant for Forrest and I. If you don't see that, you haven't been following along, and in that case I will apologize to you, and remind you of the 2 minute rule!

I have held Forrest's opinion in high esteem from the day I set foot in this Hobby/Profession, and still do so today.

I was simply attempting to point out the extreme accuracy with which Forrest "Hit the Mark."

Being an "Old Age Learner" I have felt every emotion brought forth in his post. And I find it harder to "ask the stupid, repetitive question" because I have been thru that in other fields of endeavor.

I respect the statement:

There is no shame in buying what you can afford or what is available.

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However it is one that needs to be taken to heart by the majority, not the minority.

This problem forces the newbie to request information which some feel "they have not paid their dues" to acquire. It is viewed as requesting some kind of "learners shortcut" when in fact it is the result of what Forrest so perfectly describes.
That they are frustrated when they follow sage advise and further heartbroken when the project does not turn out.

I will continue using myself as an example. I come from an Aircraft Maintenance background. Second best or less than perfect will not due nor will it be accepted. Granted this may be considered self pressure, but I think not if your loved one is aboard "my" aircraft. Unfortunately this carries forward into Hobbies and the like.

So I'd say I've paid my dues, just not in THIS career field. So when I ask for the information to correct or compensate for some error, yes, I do resent the glib answer.

We need to help folks that live in the "Land of Make Do" use what they have; to as good a result as the machine will allow.

It is a shame there isn't any type of "Newbie Approved" stamp, like a UL listing.

Some of the best threads on this forum come when men Brainstorm a solution to some project or machine defect.

So I am in no way demeaning Forrest or Forrest's Post. On the contrary in fact, I'm trying my damndest to support his view with accurate examples, with the object being to open some eyes and minds. Or at a minimum remind you to try and remember when YOU were in those shoes.

Respectfully, Ken

Cheers Michael & jking

I know what you mean Forest. Once a buddy of mine bought a rough Corvette convertible. 1973 model, no engine, good body, paint, and interior.

He paid $4000 for it and my suggestion was to buy this other one for $6500. He thought he could put a motor in like "HE" wanted , new tires and rims, add a new stereo for under $6000.
He would have $500 left.

After he built the engine and put it in, the transmission was bad, then the wiring, and finally the front suspension and all of the body bushings were worn out. After a ittle bit of driving the body started to move and spider- webbed. He had around $7200 in it working his tail off to do it and it was junk.

He ended up trading it to someone for a Nissan 280Z.

This guy was frustrated, but he should have bought the vette that was a little more money or even the Nissan that he would end up with.

You need to watch the old machines, and especially take someone with you to look at one.
Another set of eyes may see something that you don't.

I know a machinist that gripes and *itches about everything . Very plain spoken. He is the first to help me look at equipment. He tells me what he thinks. Then points to whatever on the machine and proves it.

Great guy, he is.

JAckal

I will never feel insulted for having my writing discussed or even refuted. I try to separate what I present as fact from what I present as opinion. Don't hesitate to bust me if I lapse into stupid mode. We're here to seek usable information we can apply in our home shops not pay homage to gurus.

That said I will defend any position I may take unless I'm shown to be in error. And I hope my objectivity is such that I will recgnize screw-up from minority position.

We can take two lessons from politics here: 1 - The sum of ignorance is ignorance and will never be wisdom and 2 - Errors and foolishness perpetuated as an institution results in an errorious and foolish institution.

Let's all keep an open mind wherever it may take us even if our most cherished beliefs are imperiled (No tooth fairy?!! Say it isn't so!!).

Adequate quality is where you find it. If you are lucky enough to scoop up some old rebuilder's pampered darling from an estate sale, fine and good. If an intolerable period of scrounging leaves you bereft of afordable US built machinery there's no shame in buying second best. That does not mean you have to take whatever HF slings at you. That means you still have to shop and compare and evaluate among the import machine tools.

If that leads you to a machine that's Asian built, which appears to be well constructed of the right materials, and has the bells and whistles you want you should not let some bigoted chauvinist say you nay. Buy it and put it to work.

Here's another aphorism alluding to the machine tool market. Some bargains are best left where they are even if someone wants to pay you for taking them.

what i see as the important part here is
--What level of support do YOU require for your intended use--
my sweetheart
is old as dirt and probly way past here days of turning cranks.
should i have bought a new grizz?
not hardly
why?
because what i wanted was an old machine to look at and maybe make a pointy stick to jab at the neighbors cat,,,to walk by and dream of days gone by and rub once in awhile with some oil.
when i first joined this group i made a statement that i would rather have a 60 year old gorton than a 10 year old BP.
someone came back and mentioned "support"
a point i had takin' for granted because i need little.
forrest's statement is very true
i think what we sometime forget is that the newbies are just that
guys who want a machine tool for a specific task that has grown from there first love,,,guns,cars...whatever.
they need some level of accuracy to satisfy that need.
to them i suggest
buy what you can support on your own
for the rest of us fools
buy that old scrap iron
hell
half the reason we buy it is because year for year it's more sound than we are
just ask my wife
i should have been E-bayed years ago as
"excess capacity uneeded at this time"

Part of the problem I think with some of the cheaper Asian iron is that it conflicts with the basic premise of being a machinist.

You are expected to work to .001" (or better) and so must push yourself and your processes to be exacting, and this grows for awhile.

Looking at some of the rough edges, sloppy markings, goofy handles, etc on Asian iron jumps out like a 100-point headline as being "out of spec", especially compared to the carefully crafted ergonomics of the old-school USA brands, which in my opinion, were designed to be run day in and day out for many years.

But as stated the Name is more or less just a design. If it survived for any stretch, the machine did what it was intended for, otherwise would quickly become known as a rip-off and no more would be sold.

I think the best advice is to do your homework, get out and test, try, research, compare features, (carefully) run somebody else's lathe. Sooner or later you'll run across a complete POS no matter where made, and some cherries too, those bookends will help frame your perspective on when and where you should plunk down your cash.

Certainly what DirtDobber posted about powering, moving, tooling, (and I'll add repairing the machine) are no small considerations.

At the end of the day, the machine is just a means to that little part that you can hold in your hand. If it is to print, then what else really matters?