American vs. Alibaba

Spurs · May 21, 2018

This is not a political post,this is my first post and I'm learning more about fabbing plastics and metals.

I want to support North American sources and want the clients I come into contact with to support North American sources and am noticing that Alibaba and Asian companies are significantly cheaper.

I'm a bit ignorant when it comes to this topic so I'm curious to find out what you guys suggest to not have to use Alibaba without sacrificing quality.

-Spurs

Mebfab · May 21, 2018

You are just now figuring out that china is a lower cost manufacturer then america? But you are not sure about the quality? How old are you?

adama · May 21, 2018

Think people start to seriously need to realize we are in a world - global economy not a local one anymore. its not about selling goods within a 10 mile - 1 day's walk radius or a 20 mile horse ride radius or even a hundred mile car trip radius, if your running a business you have the option of global sales really easily these days.

Supporting north American sources does not help you in the long run, it drives your own prices up and makes you less competitive globally. That makes it easier for others to compete with you and "steal" your customers.

Quality is not the issue it once was either unless you set out to buy cheap crap.

L Vanice · May 21, 2018

There are people in China that will be happy to sell you merchandise with American names and appearance and really good copies of the American packaging. Just don't expect the merchandise to be American quality for China prices.

Case in point, a Chinese copy that does not fit a genuine American machine, but only costs $18.01: Foredom 3 Handpiece & Chuck Key Flex Shaft Machine Tools | eBay I bought one to see if it is any good. The only good thing was that they refunded my money without question or delay.

And the real Foredom USA model 30 handpiece for $70 + shipping: H.3 Handpiece, General Purpose Of course, they can no longer get Jacobs USA-made #0 chucks, so must be using something imported, maybe even from China. I think the Spanish #0 chucks are pretty good, by the way.

Larry

carbonbl · May 21, 2018

Your question is very vague and will get the most informative responses if you are more specific about what kind of items you are purchasing.
Raw materials? Machine tools/CNCs? Hand tools? Toys?

With durable goods, only way to know for sure will be to evaluate and test the actual item. For some things, this will be a quick visual inspection (for all I know you could be buying plastic anime figurines). For tools or heavy equipment? Maybe the Alibaba item will have issues after 6 mo of heavy use while a reputable mfg's item would be trouble free for 20 years. That's just a made-up example but the point is that it is hard to know the quality without testing or expert evaluation of the actual item you receive. Don't take the listing's word for it.

Will you be able to get support or even contact the supplier after delivery/1 mo/5 years? Lots of Alibaba sellers (some American sellers too) are just middlemen who purchase wholesale and can't really support their product. If the item shows up after sea freight and customs for months and is totally broken/unsuitable, how will you return it? Do you know how to deal with a seller operating in bad faith and intentionally hiding behind a language barrier? Can you fix or support it yourself? You can read plenty of horror stories about alibaba CNC machines over on the CNC zone site (we can't discuss those machines here).

For materials, on PM you can read many threads about poor quality of Chinese (or unknown origin) materials. For example, aluminium is a big one where lots of people have finish/machinability problems with unknown/generic/Chinese origin material.

So there's lots of risks and hidden potential costs. For some things, that's fine. Foreign suppliers do make excellent products, but do you know how to find those suppliers and establish relationships with them? Is it profitable for your business to spend the time and money to figure it out? Are you competing on cost of hundreds of thousands of items bought in bulk or are you competing on supplying qty 5 of items that must be "perfect"?

dalmatiangirl61 · May 21, 2018

What is more important to you, the cheap up front cost, or knowing you won't have to fix/replace it again next month?

carbonbl · May 21, 2018

One more thing,
One of the product lines we sell is made for us by a supplier due to the specialized equipment and material handling it requires.
This particular supplier has production lines in both USA and China. For each job they quote, I am given a price for both USA and China production. There are different costs and lead times for USA or China, depending on the part. 90% of the time we choose USA production, but this supplier still allows us to leverage some advantages (mainly cost savings) of overseas production if needed. Most importantly, they deal with the overseas factories, they are responsible for any QC issues and if I have any problems with products mfg'd overseas I know exactly who to go to to get it resolved. I have confidence that it will get resolved. Would I want to spend the time set up this kind of relationship with the Chinese factory myself? Hell no- in the particular circumstances of our business, our expertise, size, market, etc, no way that would be more profitable! I like the arrangement as it stands, and notice there is no Alibaba-style online purchasing involved.

jim rozen · May 21, 2018

It's a darn good thing we're saving all those ZTE jobs for a government-owned PRC telecom.

Gobo · May 21, 2018

I needed to buy a fair of pick-pocket proof pants. Being taller than the usual male, it was a challenge. After searching really, really intensely, the only place I could find the pants to fit me was Alibaba. The fit and quality were excellent. One of those times where I had to buy Chinese or nothing at all.

snowman · May 21, 2018

L Vanice said:
There are people in China that will be happy to sell you merchandise with American names and appearance and really good copies of the American packaging. Just don't expect the merchandise to be American quality for China prices.

Case in point, a Chinese copy that does not fit a genuine American machine, but only costs $18.01: Foredom 3 Handpiece & Chuck Key Flex Shaft Machine Tools | eBay I bought one to see if it is any good. The only good thing was that they refunded my money without question or delay.

And the real Foredom USA model 30 handpiece for $70 + shipping: H.3 Handpiece, General Purpose Of course, they can no longer get Jacobs USA-made #0 chucks, so must be using something imported, maybe even from China. I think the Spanish #0 chucks are pretty good, by the way.

Larry

It's funny to me how often Jacobs chucks end up in the scrap yard these days. But....After all these years it's still uncommon to find a stamped 18n, but I see laser engraved ones all the damn time....and have since about six months after they made the change. Always with the scroll frozen.

The Chinese can make some nice products when we want to pay for them, but that's not what the move is about.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

TDegenhart · May 21, 2018

Gobo said:
I needed to buy a fair of pick-pocket proof pants. Being taller than the usual male, it was a challenge. After searching really, really intensely, the only place I could find the pants to fit me was Alibaba. The fit and quality were excellent. One of those times where I had to buy Chinese or nothing at all.

You could have had them tailor made.

Tom

richard newman · May 22, 2018

Gobo said:
I needed to buy a fair of pick-pocket proof pants. Being taller than the usual male, it was a challenge. After searching really, really intensely, the only place I could find the pants to fit me was Alibaba. The fit and quality were excellent. One of those times where I had to buy Chinese or nothing at all.

What exactly are "pick-pocket proof pants"?

richard newman · May 22, 2018

Gobo said:
I needed to buy a fair of pick-pocket proof pants. Being taller than the usual male, it was a challenge. After searching really, really intensely, the only place I could find the pants to fit me was Alibaba. The fit and quality were excellent. One of those times where I had to buy Chinese or nothing at all.

What exactly are "pick-pocket proof pants"?

Spurs · May 22, 2018

Replies below you guys have been great.

Spurs · May 22, 2018

@mebfab You're just being snarky. Have a nice day.

Spurs · May 22, 2018

dalmatiangirl61 said:
What is more important to you, the cheap up front cost, or knowing you won't have to fix/replace it again next month?

I just need the manufacturing to last long enough to where the product doesn't break in the first 4-6 months or the first 2-3 times it's dropped. While I can't give the exact nature of the idea, I can say that I'm looking at a very very commonly used product many people have to use daily and also a toy/novelty idea.

Spurs · May 22, 2018

carbonbl said:
Your question is very vague and will get the most informative responses if you are more specific about what kind of items you are purchasing.
Raw materials? Machine tools/CNCs? Hand tools? Toys?

With durable goods, only way to know for sure will be to evaluate and test the actual item. For some things, this will be a quick visual inspection (for all I know you could be buying plastic anime figurines). For tools or heavy equipment? Maybe the Alibaba item will have issues after 6 mo of heavy use while a reputable mfg's item would be trouble free for 20 years. That's just a made-up example but the point is that it is hard to know the quality without testing or expert evaluation of the actual item you receive. Don't take the listing's word for it.

Will you be able to get support or even contact the supplier after delivery/1 mo/5 years? Lots of Alibaba sellers (some American sellers too) are just middlemen who purchase wholesale and can't really support their product. If the item shows up after sea freight and customs for months and is totally broken/unsuitable, how will you return it? Do you know how to deal with a seller operating in bad faith and intentionally hiding behind a language barrier? Can you fix or support it yourself? You can read plenty of horror stories about alibaba CNC machines over on the CNC zone site (we can't discuss those machines here).

For materials, on PM you can read many threads about poor quality of Chinese (or unknown origin) materials. For example, aluminium is a big one where lots of people have finish/machinability problems with unknown/generic/Chinese origin material.

So there's lots of risks and hidden potential costs. For some things, that's fine. Foreign suppliers do make excellent products, but do you know how to find those suppliers and establish relationships with them? Is it profitable for your business to spend the time and money to figure it out? Are you competing on cost of hundreds of thousands of items bought in bulk or are you competing on supplying qty 5 of items that must be "perfect"?

I posted reply @dalmatiangirl -- I'm just getting my feet wet with this but I'm of the philosophy that I don't need to know everything about a topic before taking action towards it. I don't need to know everything about Real Estate to buy another house.

Spurs · May 22, 2018

Gobo said:
I needed to buy a fair of pick-pocket proof pants. Being taller than the usual male, it was a challenge. After searching really, really intensely, the only place I could find the pants to fit me was Alibaba. The fit and quality were excellent. One of those times where I had to buy Chinese or nothing at all.

Now THAT is interesting.. You must be in Europe. But at the end of the day I feel terrible about buying from overseas sources/manufacturers because I feel like I'm contributing to the problem we have of outsourced jobs here stateside.

Gobo · May 22, 2018

richard newman said:
What exactly are "pick-pocket proof pants"?

I was planning a trip to India. Pick pocket resistant would probably be more apt of a description. Basically cargo pants. Zippers on the pockets. Along with a safety pin holding the zipper closed, works great.

kustomizingkid · May 22, 2018

Here I come in for the political ranting and we are talking about pants... this is why I love this place.

American vs. Alibaba

Plastic

Diamond

Diamond

Diamond

Cast Iron

Diamond

Cast Iron

Diamond

Titanium

Diamond

Diamond

Titanium

Titanium

Plastic

Plastic

Plastic

Plastic

Plastic

Titanium

Titanium

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