Anyone making $$ with a 2nd-operation lathe like the Hardinge DSM-59?

Long Tom · Apr 24, 2015

..... or has their day come and gone?

I have a customer who's product is ramping up. I'm exploring ways to ramp up with him. One option is a smaller CNC lathe. Another is perhaps a 2nd op lathe. Obviously the latter is much cheaper. There's a Feeler Hardinge copy nearby well-tooled that has caught my eye:

http://portland.craigslist.org/mlt/tls/4991632010.html

Since it has a compound, and sorta even a crosslide, it could do a good number of the operations on the parts I typically make for him.

I've watched YouTube videos of these in action. It seems their strength is drill/tap/chamfer and cutoff type operations. With the Feeler having a cross/compound it could do some other stuff, though it wouldn't be any better than my main lathe for that. Other than being a more appropriately sized machine for the work (small shafts).

I'm not ready to pull the trigger yet but I get the sense that I'll be buying a machine soon. So I'm doing my research now while the heat is not on me. Thank you!

oldster · Apr 24, 2015

2nd ops were great, and can still do a good job, but there has to be a lot of profit in the job for it to make sense. As the old radio show said: "You Are There". You stop to scratch your ass, and so does the lathe.

Look a bit further down the road, when you are way too busy and be glad that you bought the small cnc instead.
I had a similar problem, and went from a 2nd op to a single spindle cnc with bar feed, and within a year upgraded to a dual spindle multi axis lathe with gang tools and have never looked back.
Granted, I machine my own product, and I can run the lathe for weeks at a time on the same part. It really doesn't know if it is a lathe or a bar fed mill.
Parts drop onto the belt ready for assembly.

Lee (the saw guy)

athack · Apr 24, 2015

The 2nd op lathes are always a good short term option. They can fill in until you see where the work is heading. As to the Feeler brand I don't know much about them. I can say we have 3 Hardinges, 1950- 1968 vintage and they are used often and hold up well.

athack.

metalmaster10 · Apr 24, 2015

In MHO, if that was within 300 miles of me I would be loading it right now...
A small CNC is great IF the 2nd op you need to do can be fed automatically, or the prt can drop completely from barstock. If you get a small standard lathe that duplicates the capabilities of that little turret lathe ask this: "will someone still have to stand there and hand feed it parts?"
There is always a place for a nice small turret lathe. But yes, the CNC will win most times. (Especially if it is running behind you while you are doing the second ops on the turret lathe and getting the 2for1 deal)

Miguels244 · Apr 24, 2015

metalmaster10 said:
In MHO, if that was within 300 miles of me I would be loading it right now...

Yep...

And remember, Omniturn makes a CNC kit for the Hardinge.

dkmc · Apr 24, 2015

Yes
With the turret & lever cross slide not the compound & tailstock

alonzo83 · Apr 24, 2015

IIRC, you are into some sort of bike axle?

How many of these are you doing at a run?

Question Boy · Apr 24, 2015

Run, don't walk.

I have a small turret lathe, and when I need it, I need it. They're very handy for rework, polishing, deburring, etc.

That machine is well tooled and looks like a bargain. QCTP and holders, 3 jaw chuck, Hardinge compound, turret, turret tooling, collets, overhead cutoff, lever action crosslide. You should probably just pick up some cash at the bank and head over there before I drive up there myself.

QB

Long Tom · Apr 25, 2015

Yer killin' me here. Believe me I see that this is a machine ready to do productive work. I'm smitten.

Seems like, there's several lines in the ever-shifting sand in machining quantities of parts. There's prototypes and onesy-twosy. There's 10-20 of the damn things. There's making 100. Making 1000. A Million.

If I'm thinking about this right, a machine like this might bridge you from making 100 to making 1000..... after that (or soon thereafter) the CNC guys will eat you alive. But you might compete well up into the high hundreds of parts. Is that a reasonable assumption?

It bears remembering what this machine is. Inside the 5c collet envelope you are in fat city. Bigger than that, not so much. NO longitudinal feed because there's not even a carriage. No threading. The included dual compound makes it more interesting, for sure, but it's an either/or with it, or the dual-station lever actuated crosslide. It's a intriguing little minx but has very real limits.

adama · Apr 25, 2015

I have a std 11" Harrison engine lathe, but i also have the bed turret for it. Yeah its not cnc, but ge gods with the right work its a good way of earning a income and pretty fast too. Die heads rock, tapping, drilling are all quick, Got knurls too on it and they work ace. Just wish i could master how to run a box tool, but for some reason i just can never pull that off :-(

Add a quick change tool post and a metric shit ton of tool holders + a generous supply of HSS to grind into form tools and with runs of 2-400 you can make a profit with manual gear still.

Im now looking - working on a gang tooled lathe option, something to automate some of the turning steps on my bigger runs + increase the amount i can get done in a day.

Limy Sami · Apr 25, 2015

+ 1 on every pro opinion & post.

Long Tom - just go and get it

challenger · Apr 25, 2015

Taiwan R. O. C. - BOOOOOO
Otherwise this looks like a steal. Huge amount of tooling. Not that this is your intention but it seems like you could double your money at that price? The machine looks cherry other than the tag. [emoji16]
Can you find a harding tag? That would make it easier to stand in front of IMO.
Good luck. BUY IT!

calvin b · Apr 25, 2015

Long Tom, Sir
Here's my two cents worth.. When I buy a tool I realize that I'm investing in a customer's need.. I have to assess how much projected revenue I'm likely to receive from said customer.. If I have the capability to do the customer's work in house with existing machines what is the time/cost savings of a new machine verses what the 'new machine will save in time/production cost. Personally I'm always a bit leery of 'new-long term' jobs as more often than not they seem to vanish over night. ( at least that has been my experience ).. I don't want to gamble more than I can afford to loose.. AND let's face it, these days it's almost always a gamble with 'new' customers. That said I have long term customers that I can work with on a hand shake so it's not all bad...
Another thought for ya.. What would be your learning curve on a small cnc ? Seam's you are familiar with a manual lathe so the turret lathe is fairly easily transitioned to.. What amount of time would it take to get 'up to speed' on a cnc ?
Just some thoughts and observations for ya. Oh and iff'n youse get the turret lathe I'd be much obliged if you would post dome pictures.
Hope this helps
Stay safe
Calvin Haxton
PS I'm a proud owner of both engine lathes and a turret lathe

sticks · Apr 25, 2015

"$1K worth of tooling (some Hardinge) and for another $1200 we'll throw in a lathe the stuff fits."

- Taiwan is not mainland China, nor has its history of build quality (read customer specs) been as sketchy that I know of.

- IMO a simple matter of 3PH power and floorspace. Once installed there may be more work to justify ownership.

- You snooze you lose, but as a consolation, for 'bout the same $$ one might otherwise buy two trendy tables made from antique cone-head lathe stands/bases. (btw, no pro no mo', retired to custom shop but still opinionated)

Dupa3872 · Apr 25, 2015

I would be writing a check right now. My first new machine was a Hardinge DSM-59 Next was a TRL a month later followed by my fist CNC a CHNC less than a year down the road. Hardinge helped build my shop. I would buy it just to look at.

Ron

adama · Apr 25, 2015

Anouther way of looking at it, that $2250 would only be makeing you $60 a year intrest in the bank over here, you gotta do real bad to get less than that a year with something that well tooled :-)

vonleyser · Apr 25, 2015

Shop I work at has a Feeler, carriage rack is flat worn out, coolant pump removed, seems like owner is not to concerned about fixing it. I use it for rework, making small what nots, holds good tolerances.

kensmachine · Apr 25, 2015

Feeler's are a good machine not as good as a Hardeing as they fall short in the switch gear that's only trouble I have had with mine. most parts/tooling interchange. He put it on C/L for less than I told him to for a machine that well tooled add a bar feeder and go to town if you need to thread you will need a die head Ken

kensmachine · Apr 25, 2015

turret lathe

good deal on a hardeing Hardinge DSM-59 Lathe

specfab · Apr 25, 2015

I think you have the right concept in terms of where a machine like this can fit. The 50-250 pc qty run, if you have parts that aren't too fussy, can be a real money-maker. Higher qty just means more of the same (= boring). If the turret is set up with some standard toolholding, your part-specific setup time can be minimized. The setup for anything can often be a matter of multiple iterations of where to mount the turret and the cross-slide on the bed, how far the tools stick out and what depth they traverse vs. how far back they need to come to retract and index the next tool. I have found that if the part is a bit larger than usual, setup can take a couple of hours of dicking around, depending on what tools you have to use. Nevertheless, a turret lathe of almost any variety can be hugely productive, as long as someone is willing to run it.

Anyone making $$ with a 2nd-operation lathe like the Hardinge DSM-59?

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