OT- Volcanic ash and jets - any technical workaround ?

Milacron · Apr 17, 2010

Just wondering if there is anything that could be done technically to solve the problem of volcanic ash in the atmosphere in the future with regards to jet engines. I understand the particles are usually too fine to show up on radar but that someone in the UK designed a small particle detector years ago but it was considered too heavy and expensive.

Alternatively could there be a way to design the engines to survive the abrasive particles ? In one instance decades ago the particles shut down all 4 engines on a 747 but they were able to restart them after they got out of the offending cloud...so it's not like the ash particles necessarily seize the engines for good, but can shut them down long enough for potential disaster. Thoughts ?

Limy Sami · Apr 17, 2010

Don't know about a tech fix, but according to this;-

BBC News - Iceland volcano: Why a cloud of ash has grounded flights

keeping under 15000 ft?

67Cuda · Apr 17, 2010

Mother Nature wins every time. No work around, just got to deal with it until it becomes a regular occurrence to where they find a solution.

Tom

Milacron · Apr 17, 2010

Limy Sami said:
Don't know about a tech fix, but according to this;-BBC News - Iceland volcano: Why a cloud of ash has grounded flights
keeping under 15000 ft?

Very interesting...the 1982 British Airways flight was the one I was referencing but I couldn't remember the specifics. Yes, why not just keep the aircraft at much lower altitude than normal if ash is known in your flight path ? In the case of the 1982 flight as I recall it occured at night and they had no idea what was happening...no warnings of ash beforehand.

Dave D · Apr 17, 2010

As Limy Sami's article states, it is not the abrasion though that is probably not that great for the engines either. Alot of volcanic ash is used as a flux by clay potters, it melts at a relatively low temperature hence the glass coating on the engine. I heard that the jet that dropped and was able to restart its engines since the dropping altitude/failed starts cooled the engines enough that enough of the glass fractured/broke off. Lucky, very lucky. Dave

Bill D · Apr 17, 2010

I think it may also sandblast the windows. They do need to put filters on the engines to keep out the birds. Of course then they have to have away to clear them off in flight in case too many block the intake.
BillD.

thruthefence · Apr 17, 2010

"Much lower altitudes" = "much higher fuel burn" = "Less revenue producing weight carrying capacity"

I can't imagine the operators risking any ash exposure, as much as it costs to fix these engines after ash ingestion.

moonlight machine · Apr 17, 2010

Man that's some kind of pollution they got going on there. Prolly a mess of them green house gasses a coming out a there too. Next thing ya know the greenies will let the whale hunters alone and make a giant catalytic converter for the mountain. An they will need a serious particle filter too. Right then boys get on with it!!! Come on Ma Nature, ya got to listen to Al Gore, your causing some global warming or something!

Ox · Apr 17, 2010

Volcano's = cooling... :Yawn:

--------------

Think Snow Eh!
Ox

Krutch · Apr 17, 2010

Yeah, Milicron, there is a way! That's why the global warming idiots are trying to get everyone to stop living! If we all just stay home and freeze in winter, sweat off our fat in summer, and quit breathing, it'll all be OK. Oh, and make sure Algore gets all the money we have, then he will protect us from the bad volcanos.
Krutch

The Energy Rebel · Apr 17, 2010

To answer the question..........Nope.

That's why I like to be my own pilot.

With 4 wheels.

On the ground.

Many of those travelers and freight shippers are also finding that to be the only logical alternative.
As already pointed out, when it comes to Mother Nature, all of our technological might is simply no match for her. :bawling:

red beard · Apr 17, 2010

Ox said:
Volcano's = cooling...

To further expound on Ox's point. Ash particles reflect sunlight which actually cools the earth rather than warming it.
You can read more here:Global dimming - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Aaron

davohouston · Apr 17, 2010

Take the cruise ships across the atlantic until furthur notice.

edit: Im waiting to see how long til my airline adds the volcano to the excuse list as to why no raises- 8 years and counting since last one

cfaw10 · Apr 17, 2010

The Energy Rebel said:
That's why I like to be my own pilot.

With 4 wheels.

On the ground.:

As an old wise man once said,
The only two things to fall out of the sky (besides water) are bird s--t and fools.

Mark K · Apr 17, 2010

Also,

"Much lower altitudes" = "much higher fuel burn" = "iceberg landing"

which will keep you out of heaven, if you hit a polar bear.

Mark

Pete F · Apr 17, 2010

In a word, no. The particles are extremely fine silica which, any woodworker will confirm, is highly abrasive. While the BA 747 may have indeed restarted engines at lower altitude, they were all trashed after the event as I recall. Incidentally, the engines probably wouldn't have started at altitude irrespective of the ash damage as the starting altitude is much lower than the operating altitude of the engine.

While the particles are indeed carried vast distances at high altitude, they have to get up there. Simply flying at low altitudes won't work, besides the fact the aircraft's fuel consumption/range would be diabolical. A plume is tracked by satellite which does not give reliable altitude data, therefore the only option is to avoid the area. Unfortunately the area of avoidance happens to be rather inconvenient at present

Pete

Milacron · Apr 17, 2010

To clarify what seemed obvious to me, but apparently not to most....I didn't post this to ask if there is any technical workaround the problem NOW, since if there was, the airlines would be doing it. I started the thread to see if anyone had any ideas for the future in this regard...and stated such in my first paragraph.

Those saying, "nope, nothing can be done" would be the same folks 150 years ago saying there is no way anyone could talk over wires, and absolutely no way anyone could ever see moving color images broadcast thru the air !

sean9c · Apr 17, 2010

I have to believe that the airlines will do nothing particularly creative with altitudes or engine mods for one very big reason LIABILITY. If anything goes wrong the lawyers will be circling.
From what I've heard this type of ash is particularly nasty. something to do with the hot magma hitting the ice/snow.
I think someone just needs to do something with Iceland. First their hifliers cause their economy to implode now their volcano is wrecking the world. Come on it's only a big icefield full of reindeer and a few folks

BadBeta · Apr 17, 2010

Hook rocket engines to the planes. It wont really solve air intake issue for the jet engines, but it can provide some independent emergency propulsion - for a while.

gvasale · Apr 17, 2010

Didn't Mel Brooks invent "Mega-Maid" the transformer in Spaceballs? Sorry, I couldn't resist...

OT- Volcanic ash and jets - any technical workaround ?

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