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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by FredC View Post
    I went back and looked at the video, and it still seems to be a draw in collet. I did not know that Traub uses such now. the Traubs I have use and have seen have push type collets. If you get all the slides in the video, the sequencer/ controller for $5000.00 you could make this work. Those slides and "airmotors" if purchased separately will cost a lot and you will have been better off buying an old screw machine.
    Cutting tools will be very similar for either way.
    You still have not provided a picture or drawing of the finished part so I am not certain it can be done with form tools. I have ben locked out of posting new videos to my Youtube account but will email you a couple of screw machine videos.
    Another problem with screw machines is they have a small spindle bore. My parts are larger than this. I can get these machines with spindle bores of up to 60mm. I have even seen these types of instrument lathes with spindle bores up to 80mm I believe. Although this machine uses a lathe with a spindle bore of 45mm, it is enough to manufacture my products.

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    Yeah, your replies came too fast and did not see them all. I did not check all the tolerances, but the profile definitely could be done on a screw machine. Getting all the cams special made to get the cycle time similar to your demo video would cost a couple of thousand. Building all those slides seen in your video and mounting the "airmotors" would cost many times that plus who knows how to program that sequencer?
    I would look for a A42 or a B42 without the turret to do these.

    Opened another tab and went back and looked at the drawing, you are not going to be able to hold those tolerances with a screw machine or the air motor machine. Because of the squishiness of the plastic, I am not sure how you will make and measure them. I could make them in brass on a CNC but some of those dimensions would still be a pain.

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  4. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by FredC View Post
    Yeah, your replies came too fast and did not see them all. I did not check all the tolerances, but the profile definitely could be done on a screw machine. Getting all the cams special made to get the cycle time similar to your demo video would cost a couple of thousand. Building all those slides seen in your video and mounting the "airmotors" would cost many times that plus who knows how to program that sequencer?
    I would look for a A42 or a B42 without the turret to do these.

    Opened another tab and went back and looked at the drawing, you are not going to be able to hold those tolerances with a screw machine or the air motor machine. Because of the squishiness of the plastic, I am not sure how you will make and measure them. I could make them in brass on a CNC but some of those dimensions would still be a pain.
    Hi Fred:
    I have visited factories that are using these types of machines. If the tooling is properly set up, there's no need to measure parts. They are very precise, although they may not look that. And they're extremely fast. The machine in the video is doing about 20 parts per minute. The most important tool is the one that cuts both diameters together. There are 2 blades. The video clip shows straight wall machine. But i quite sure it can be done on my parts too. Diameter tools move back forth along the Z axis of the machine, the wall thickness is established by space between them. The rest of the tools are quite simple. The machine just needs a clever tool designer.

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    FredC
    Also what I like about this machine is its simplicity. No need for cams. Just slides and air cylinders. These tools should be cheap to make, just HSS tool steel bars.

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    Drawing 1 is an absolute doddle,.003" wall thickness. How easy do you people want it?
    Drawing 2,don't understand it, perhaps it's section sectioned( or something like that).
    I looked at the tolerances and thought "Oh boy,open limits in plastic",no problems here then.
    These parts were NOT drawn by a machinist. If Fred c thinks you will have trouble holding those tolerances perhaps you might want to re-think what you are trying to do.
    The tooling for this sort of thing is made all day, every day. Go to a local screw machine shop and ask who supplies them.
    Would I want to quote for making these components for you,NO THANKS.

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    Quote Originally Posted by semionb View Post
    Hi Limy Sami:
    I have no problem posting part drawing here, but I would like for people to see how the machine operates. I have a video of the machine in operation, but I can't post here because I have it on my computer, it is not on the web. Someone gave me the clip.
    So if there is a way to post here, I would definitely do it. Otherwise, if someone wants to see the machine in action, I can email you the clip.Attachment 216411

    MMMM? ...........As it happens, part's like this are part of the little niche I've carved out of the market, so you could say I speak from experience.

    I've looked at your drawing, and they look very similar to a part I make (wristwatch crystal gaskets) in batches of around 50 off.

    Now, I'm not trying to cause offence here, or blow my own trumpet, but judging from your machining skill and knowledge level that I perceive from your posts (possibly wrongly? ) I will say ;- you don't stand a snow ball in hells chance of doing the job.

    1, It is not suited to automation, Camscan himself has seen the part I make like yours and after the expeletives ,agreed whole heartedly the way I make them is about the only viable method, .and while he he didn't day it can't be done - he'd hate to try it, .and that man knows.

    2, I make that part manually on an engine lathe though something like Hardinge 59 would be equally suitable.

    3, As to how I make them? ....apart from saying ;- ''they need special tooling, that took me a lot of hours to get right and a very light touch'' I am not broadcasting my method, this guy still needs to eat for the few years he has left on this mortal coil

    So in short, unless you really know what you are doing, .....find a firm that makes such part, and be prepared to pay for them

    Take care

    Sami.

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    ...And if Limy is making them in batches of 50, why would you want
    something "Faster than a C.N.C." ?

    FWIW qty (3) of the machines I listed do not use cams.
    (or at least ones you need to change/worry about)

    And qty (3) of them are multispindle, and would out produce
    you machine by a factor of at least 6X

    And a couple of them I have seen with a thru bore I can put my fist thru
    (4" bore and barfeeders)
    Last edited by digger doug; 12-29-2017 at 02:44 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Limy Sami View Post
    MMMM? ...........As it happens, part's like this are part of the little niche I've carved out of the market, so you could say I speak from experience.

    I've looked at your drawing, and they look very similar to a part I make (wristwatch crystal gaskets) in batches of around 50 off.

    Now, I'm not trying to cause offence here, or blow my own trumpet, but judging from your machining skill and knowledge level that I perceive from your posts (possibly wrongly? ) I will say ;- you don't stand a snow ball in hells chance of doing the job.

    1, It is not suited to automation, Camscan himself has seen the part I make like yours and after the expeletives ,agreed whole heartedly the way I make them is about the only viable method, .and while he he didn't day it can't be done - he'd hate to try it, .and that man knows.

    2, I make that part manually on an engine lathe though something like Hardinge 59 would be equally suitable.

    3, As to how I make them? ....apart from saying ;- ''they need special tooling, that took me a lot of hours to get right and a very light touch'' I am not broadcasting my method, this guy still needs to eat for the few years he has left on this mortal coil

    So in short, unless you really know what you are doing, .....find a firm that makes such part, and be prepared to pay for them

    Take care

    Sami.
    You know, I never claimed to be an expert on machining. However, too many people here believe their way is the only way, so anything else can't work. You people should stop believing you're gods, and your opinions are the only way. If that were true, progress could never have been made, in any field. You just haven't thought about it. So simply because someone else thought of a better way to skin a cat, it doesn't mean that it won't work. You haven't tried it. I have seen these types of machines in action, they work. To make my parts, I just need tooling. These are simple and productive machine. They're designed to specifically machine certain types of parts and they do it well. I don't claim to be a machinist, I am just trying to make money at this. I've seen other posts where the poster is looking for a way to do something, and everyone is giving him technical advice. Then a guy chimes in and says, why don't you just farm this work out. But the original poster is fighting it. We should do what each of us is best at. My going into manufacturing would be the last resort because no one is capable of producing what I want. So I want to stay away from having a shop. My idea is maximizing profit, but that requires understanding of the manufacturing process of the parts. It is not that I haven't thought of another way, this seems the most cost effective way to make my products.

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    ... and that's what I got for being polite!

    You come from New York so I'm sure you'll understand this - go fuck yourself - asshole

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    Quote Originally Posted by semionb View Post
    However, too many people here believe their way is the only way, so anything else can't work. You people should stop believing you're gods, and your opinions are the only way.
    Well, you people that think you know it all should stop and listen to the voice of experience. What, do you really think that we haven't tried stuff in the 50 years we've been doing this stuff? You just go ahead and do what you want to do. It really doesn't matter to most of us. I can tell right now that you'll never come back and addmit you were wrong and somebody here was right. After all, you've probably got an MBA.
    JR

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    Basically its all gotta be form tools, basically and simply the tool is profiled such that it plunges into the work and leaves the desired in tolerance profile, it sounds simple, it fundamentally is simple, but like most of these things its the details that kill you. Done right part of can cut off the finished bit and also profile the next on the od. Form tooling is never a off the shelf - out the catalogue available option.

    Form tool can be ground free hand on a bench grinder, small details worked into them with nothing more than a thin cutting disc on a angle grinder, dremels, mounted points and some diamond or similar lapping paste and you can do a lot, 99% of the effort on that kinda lathe is set-up and making the tooling. Yeah you can get the tools profiled via wire EDM, but IMHO you still need to hone em a little and have the material there to hone off to end up in tolerance! Sharpness is everything especially in plastics and especially in small thin parts like you have there. Tooling need not even be HSS good old carbon steel properly heat treated works just fine in unfilled plastics.

    I make a few simple nylon parts with form tooling, takes a while to make the tool but once you have part production is fast , one of my bits is a simple drill then part of and forming the next part is all integrated in the one tool blank part comes out of 16mm white nylon rod. I get 70p each and trust me with just a manually operated lathe the hourly rate is damn near unbelievable. i make several a minute and lathe speeds not even ran flat out as the momentum - wait for the chuck to stop means less parts a minute, i can actually make more of them a hour with half the spindle speed!! But set-up will see the first few under of over size and in the bin. My form tools have been made from anything from nice HSS tool blanks right on through to bits of a broken HSS cold saw blade.

    Whilst im a big believer in this game there’s always multiple ways to skin the cat, Sami is not wrong the learning curve is steep and will take you a while to get there especially on a machine like that. Im happy to discuss the basics, but i am just like sami, im not going to reveal all the secrets and spoon feed it to you because for the same reason as him, its how i make money to eat! And whilst i can not comment on Sami's customer base, mine is truly global on a weekly basis so even though your 3K + miles away your still sorta competition!

    In this the 21st century most people run cnc and simply single point turn everything, its a lot lot easier to setup and do, but its slow and the machines relatively speaking cost mega bucks, trade off with this lathe approach its all in the setup, but then like you say your talking a few seconds a part and above all once a parts in tolerance it stays there for ages and ages! Hell biggest issue can be sorting the parts out of the swarf! just truly hope you need and have a market for thousands and thousands of thoes bits, because if you only want a few hundred boy is this not the most cost effective way to go, you would do far better to send Sami a RFQ!! His parts will be good because as he says its a large part of what he does!

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    OK,fair do's, Why do you not reply to my problem with the wall thickness on detail 1? Let's make just one. O/D on bottom limit and I/D on top limit. Do you have any problems with just making one?
    If the answer is yes then you may understand our thinking.
    If the answer is no then go into production. Another job jobbed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Limy Sami View Post
    ... and that's what I got for being polite!

    You come from New York so I'm sure you'll understand this - go fuck yourself - asshole
    PM seem to draw "inventors" and other eccentrics like a honeypot
    (OK, sometimes these interdisciplinary nut case threads are actually interesting.)

    I think OP better invent his own method also for making the tools

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    Quote Originally Posted by MattiJ View Post
    PM seem to draw "inventors" and other eccentrics like a honeypot
    (OK, sometimes these interdisciplinary nut case threads are actually interesting.)

    I think OP better invent his own method also for making the tools

    Its not a case of inventor types, the world over is pushing technologies ever harder, parts have to be ever thinner, ever lighter and ever stronger, other wise we would all still be building stone pyramids.

    Yeah the parts thin, but at the same time its not so thin as to be impossible. But it is more than thin enough a lot of things have to be just right.

    As for the op, think hes sorta expecting some of us to more or less design the tooling that lathe needs to make thoes bits and yeah, im not doing that the same way im not doing anyone else’s work for them, i am more than happy to discuss the basics of what he needs and were he needs to go look to fill in the blanks though if only he could show a picture of the tool post mounting area of said lathe we might be able to help him more!

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    Quote Originally Posted by adama View Post
    Its not a case of inventor types, the world over is pushing technologies ever harder, parts have to be ever thinner, ever lighter and ever stronger, other wise we would all still be building stone pyramids.

    Yeah the parts thin, but at the same time its not so thin as to be impossible. But it is more than thin enough a lot of things have to be just right.

    As for the op, think hes sorta expecting some of us to more or less design the tooling that lathe needs to make thoes bits and yeah, im not doing that the same way im not doing anyone else’s work for them, i am more than happy to discuss the basics of what he needs and were he needs to go look to fill in the blanks though if only he could show a picture of the tool post mounting area of said lathe we might be able to help him more!
    Thank you Adama, you seem to get my point.
    I am not asking anyone here to design the tooling, I have an idea of what the tooling should look like. I am more interested to bounce ideas off. But some people seem to be very thin skinned. I need 100k-200k parts/year. And they need to be well priced. It is not practical doing them manually. In this case the machine is cheap, the tooling should be quite simple to make and, as you say, once it is set up, it will just run. But I also have other similar profiles, so that is why using a specialized machine is cost effective.I will be more than happy to send you the video of the machine in operation. Posting here is not possible because I can't provide a url or youtube links.

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    Quote Originally Posted by camscan View Post
    OK,fair do's, Why do you not reply to my problem with the wall thickness on detail 1? Let's make just one. O/D on bottom limit and I/D on top limit. Do you have any problems with just making one?
    If the answer is yes then you may understand our thinking.
    If the answer is no then go into production. Another job jobbed.
    I am sorry, I didn't mean not to reply, I just didn't see your post. I am trying to understand what you're trying to say, can you please elaborate?

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    Quote Originally Posted by semionb View Post
    I am not asking anyone here to design the tooling, I have an idea of what the tooling should look like. I am more interested to bounce ideas off.
    Your machine looks like what used to be called a 'production lathe'. Potter & Brumfeld (sp ?) made a pegboard version, Seneca Falls built them, Gisholt built some, one of the companies that built boring machines - I want to say Ex-Cell-O but I think that's wrong ... anyway, find some old brochures, they are full of tooling ideas and examples.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SeaMoss View Post
    Your machine looks like what used to be called a 'production lathe'. Potter & Brumfeld (sp ?) made a pegboard version, Seneca Falls built them, Gisholt built some, one of the companies that built boring machines - I want to say Ex-Cell-O but I think that's wrong ... anyway, find some old brochures, they are full of tooling ideas and examples.
    Thanks for the tip, I'll see if I can find some old literature about these types of machines.

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    At thoes qty's surely molding would make more sense or do you need differing features? Assuming the chamfers + step height in the cross section could be kept the same it is easy enough to design the tooling such that you can make differing diamiters of id and od, if you need to change the step sizes - part length etc, then your probaly better looking at a more conventional cnc. What you have there is not going to be fast to setup and adjust, hence you really want it to run and run to be viable.

    Above all consider chip disposal carefully, even though its a small part nylon swarf takes up a lot of space and is at least semi flamable so you need to take care - have a disposal route in mind, rough guess your look at 10's of cubic meters a year of swarf to deal with at 100K of them if turning from bar!

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    Quote Originally Posted by adama View Post
    At thoes qty's surely molding would make more sense or do you need differing features? Assuming the chamfers + step height in the cross section could be kept the same it is easy enough to design the tooling such that you can make differing diamiters of id and od, if you need to change the step sizes - part length etc, then your probaly better looking at a more conventional cnc. What you have there is not going to be fast to setup and adjust, hence you really want it to run and run to be viable.

    Above all consider chip disposal carefully, even though its a small part nylon swarf takes up a lot of space and is at least semi flamable so you need to take care - have a disposal route in mind, rough guess your look at 10's of cubic meters a year of swarf to deal with at 100K of them if turning from bar!
    I tried molding, it doesn't work. Mold is not precise enough. At the same time a mold is quite expensive, particularly a multicavity mold, and not flexible for all the parts I need. Swarf is minimized by using pipe.The grade of plastic I need is not available as rod, or any other form for that matter. I found someone with a mold to make 200mm long pipe. My preferred grade of nylon is not a extrusion grade, but there are other similar materials that are both injection and extrusion grade. Anyway, the material is not a problem. I wish you could take a look at the video, you can get an idea about the tooling, it is quite simple. But I think there is probably a way to do quick setups for running each part. Just bold it to the slide. I also believe some of my parts have features in common, so that should simplify setups. I just took a look at the video, what they did is to burn the od and id into a single piece of steel, they just plunge into the pipe to create wall. Then the other tools are used to trim the pipe edge and cut off the part from the pipe. One of the tools is used as a stop for the pipe when it indexed forward.


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