Beginner looking to buy first machine for home shop

Vintorez · Feb 17, 2017

Hi guys, I'll try keep this short.

Last year I completed a 6 month machining pre-apprenticeship course after having done an unrelated degree, and have since been looking for an apprenticeship. 6+ months later and I'm still looking. I'm working in the meantime (pick packer in a warehouse) and would like to buy a small lathe or mill at home so I can practice and keep my skills sharp. I'm turning 25 next month so I'm entering this trade pretty late (others my age already have 8+ years of experience) and would like to get right into it and learn as much as possible. I'd like to get something nice and solid but not too expensive, under $3000 AUD if possible. My questions:

1) What would you recommend for a first machine, a lathe or a mill (or possibly a combo like the picture below)? Are there any specific machines you'd recommend?

2) Do you have any recommendations for beginner projects that can be done on a small machine? The goal is to practice and learn some new skills, but I'd also like to make things to give/sell to friends or online.

3) What other essential tools do I need, and approximately how much would this set me back? Mics, calipers, etc.

4) Where can a hobbyist source metal for projects?

5) Are there any books/guides/resources you'd recommend for a beginner?

Any help or advice at all is appreciated. I'm very new to this and would like to learn.

Thank you.

tnmgcarbide · Feb 17, 2017

Home - Home Shop Machinist

EPAIII · Feb 17, 2017

tnmgcarbide said:
Home - Home Shop Machinist

Yes, this question is much better suited for the Home Shop board. It will probably be locked by our moderator shortly. Many of the people here are also there so you will get good advise there. And there are also many who are more familiar with home shop equipment.

Read the Guidelines for posting in the sticky posts here.

Vintorez · Feb 17, 2017

Sorry guys, my mistake. I will repost it there.

michiganbuck · Feb 17, 2017

likely after completing a 6 month machining pre-apprenticeship course you will be disappointed with such a lathe. even the big Smitheys are considered way less than what is needed to run parts.

*Perhaps good to delete this thread and start one about your machining pre-apprenticeship course.
likely this thread wont last a day.

How to Run a Lathe and the Cincinnati Cutter Grinder free download a good start. I have a few grinder books but nothing for a new guy to the trade. Much grinder and mill knowledg is about fixturing and measuring but have not seen many books on that..

Many of us started with cleaning the jon and cleaning out coolant tanks even after a number of school years.

I was lucky to go from extra man to grinding short order specials in less than 6 months.. Yes I cheated on that by, if making a dumb My fault mistake I would work through a break and scrub up a few good parts to make up for a scrap part or lost time.

bmikkalson · Feb 17, 2017

Fun fact!
I had bought a used smithy, it was horrible!! Made learning that much worse.

dian · Feb 17, 2017

how so? its when the machine doesnt do what you want that you start learning. i spent many years around "good" machines, we never questioned them and i had no idea how they worked. when you find out you can mill in x but not in z you start thinking about what is going on for example.

conant · Feb 18, 2017

Vintorez said:
Hi guys, I'll try keep this short.

Last year I completed a 6 month machining pre-apprenticeship course after having done an unrelated degree, and have since been looking for an apprenticeship. 6+ months later and I'm still looking. I'm working in the meantime (pick packer in a warehouse) and would like to buy a small lathe or mill at home so I can practice and keep my skills sharp. I'm turning 25 next month so I'm entering this trade pretty late (others my age already have 8+ years of experience) and would like to get right into it and learn as much as possible. I'd like to get something nice and solid but not too expensive, under $3000 AUD if possible. My questions:

1) What would you recommend for a first machine, a lathe or a mill (or possibly a combo like the picture below)? Are there any specific machines you'd recommend?

2) Do you have any recommendations for beginner projects that can be done on a small machine? The goal is to practice and learn some new skills, but I'd also like to make things to give/sell to friends or online.

3) What other essential tools do I need, and approximately how much would this set me back? Mics, calipers, etc.

4) Where can a hobbyist source metal for projects?

5) Are there any books/guides/resources you'd recommend for a beginner?

Any help or advice at all is appreciated. I'm very new to this and would like to learn.

Thank you.

View attachment 191371

I'm not sure about apprenticeship programs in your country, but in the United States they are pretty much non existent.
I majored in Manufacturing Processes at a highly respected college and worked as a laborer, as you are, for nearly two years. I then applied at every shop around and finally got in the door. I worked for nearly 6 months sweeping, taking out the trash, cleaning chip pans and moving material.
I finally begged enough to get on a machine when someone was sick. It went that way for sometime.
That was 1974.

Luke Rickert · Feb 18, 2017

Rebuilding some nice old machine would be educational although could be hard without a shop already.

Also under no circumstances should you buy a smithy or other 3 in 1. Just get a lathe and a drill press to start, then find an old mill to rebuild. Some reasonable size (9 or 10 inch swing) Chinese will do fine although something Japanese, American or European would be better finding a good used machine requires some luck in places without much manufacturing.
L

Monarchist · Feb 18, 2017

Vintorez said:
1) What would you recommend for a first machine, a lathe or a mill

Horizontal mill, hands-down. Biggest you have space and power for.

Besides being a 'real' mill?

- It comes in the door an awkward, but very capable horizontal drillpress.

- It easily becomes a 'Tee' lathe for large diameter, short-axis turning.

- With a decent overarm, and some skullduggery toward adapting or making a compound or just a riser and toolpost, it makes a reasonably serviceable somewhat longer axis lathe.

- within limits of its travel, it can do horizontal boring.

- add a dividing head, or rotab/dividing head it can make gears & c.

- mount an arbour with a saw or gang of several it can saw raw stock to size.

With those under your hand, you can adapt a salvaged vertical head, or make one from bare metal.

You will learn more, in greater depth, and faster than if you start with a lathe.

You will be able to make gadgetry with a mill that has more value than a thousand others can do who have only lathes.

If one of the things you learn is that you'd rather pursue some other line of work?

That, too, has value.

Vintorez · Feb 18, 2017

conant said:
I'm not sure about apprenticeship programs in your country, but in the United States they are pretty much non existent.
I majored in Manufacturing Processes at a highly respected college and worked as a laborer, as you are, for nearly two years. I then applied at every shop around and finally got in the door. I worked for nearly 6 months sweeping, taking out the trash, cleaning chip pans and moving material.
I finally begged enough to get on a machine when someone was sick. It went that way for sometime.
That was 1974.

There are apprenticeship programs here for all trades and it's the standard pathway for working in the industry, however for machining there isn't a lot out there at the moment. This is largely because my state's economy is strongly tied with the mining industry which is in a downturn at the moment, so a lot of shops aren't hiring apprentices. There are quite a few machinist jobs, but all require a trade certificate and 3-5+ years of experience. I can't study further either, because my pre-apprenticeship course was a Certificate II in Mechanical Trade, but a Certificate III is only available for apprentices because it has been designed to be completed with on the job training as part of a formal apprenticeship.

I've applied to every shop I've found but haven't had any luck yet. Some of the big companies have apprentice intakes once or twice a year but they are very competitive (I was told 100+ applicants to fill 3-4 positions), and my age isn't on my side as they'd have to pay me more compared with a 17 year old. I will keep looking but it will probably take a while.

My account on Home Shop Machinist hasn't been approved yet, when it is I'll remake this thread there.

Vintorez · Feb 18, 2017

Monarchist said:
Horizontal mill, hands-down. Biggest you have space and power for.

Besides being a 'real' mill?

- It comes in the door an awkward, but very capable horizontal drillpress.

- It easily becomes a 'Tee' lathe for large diameter, short-axis turning.

- With a decent overarm, and some skullduggery toward adapting or making a compound or just a riser and toolpost, it makes a reasonably serviceable somewhat longer axis lathe.

- mount an arbour with a saw or gang of several it can saw raw stock to size.

With those under your hand, you can adapt a salvaged vertical head, or make one from bare metal.

You will learn more, in greater depth, and faster than if you start with a lathe.

You will be able to make gadgetry with a mill that has more value than a thousand others can do who have only lathes.

If one of the things you learn is that you'd rather pursue some other line of work?

That, too, has value.

That's actually very interesting. I will look into it. Do you have any specific model recommendations? Thanks.

Monarchist · Feb 18, 2017

Vintorez said:
My account on <other place> hasn't been approved yet, when it is I'll remake this thread there.

So long as you avoid hobby-grade tool discussion, there is no barrier to your being here to learn.

Forget 'model' See what good-old iron can be found where you are or is transportable enough for a go-fetch. Save your cash-money for TOOLING. And of course a bit of metal.

You'll need Australian advice on both of those, and it exists here, even if not the same side of the landmass as yerself.

Find yourself an inexpensive horizontal mill of industrial, not 'hobby' flavour, no one much cares you are a 'newbie'.

Such a mill will see to it you won't BE a newbie for long, anyway..

bob ward · Feb 18, 2017

If you want responses with an Australian accent, try posting on http://metalworkforums.com

Luke Rickert · Feb 18, 2017

As for measurement gear there is a massive range of prices and a slightly less massive range in quality if that makes sense. You need a set of micrometers, a good stand and a few dial and test indicators at a minimum. I like mitutoyo for being very good quality without being crazy expensive. My sugestion is to have a cheapish .01mm indicator out and have some nicer stuff kept safe for when it is really needed. Dropping a $450 indicator is heartbreaking. I would not buy cheap digital measurement tools of any sort. Budget wise hope to find some stuff used. In Europe that is no problem, not sure about your market. Some of the old East German tools offer a good mid range option. It is going to cost a bit, few hundreds to start anyway but measurement isn't somewhere it makes sense to cheap out.

Luke

Tyrone Shoelaces · Feb 18, 2017

I'd get a small centre lathe, " Colchester Student " style. Build up from there. Using a horizontal mill to perform all those tasks needs more skill than " Monarchist " probably realises and almost certainly more skill than you possess at your stage of career.

Regards Tyrone.

stephen thomas · Feb 18, 2017

Considering budget, horizontal mill is a horrible recommendation for first machine unless it comes with all the accessories (vertical head with quill, dividing head, etc) and a metric tonne of sharpe tools.

Horizontals are wonderful machines when you know exactly what you want to do with one and have the tooling for it. Buying tooling even simple cutters, arbors and spacers will kill a newbie, compared to buying a few endmills, collets/solid sockets and a drill chuck for a vertical turret mill to get started.

OP, try to find out how "home shop" guys in your country network and exchange info on where to source used machines. In the USA it is hard to realize how good we have it in that resource. Auctions nearby every month, loads of machines on C-list, eBay, and some put out to the curb or in the junkyard just for the scrappers. Europe appears to have options if you cross borders, too. But that would be the first thing to start to try to tie in to.

There are some very friendly guys on this site & they share news sometimes. Pretty sleepy, though, not much "work" going on. But one more connection/resource for a Euro guy.

Vieilles machines a courroies

smt

michiganbuck · Feb 18, 2017

Perhaps he first thing is to decide what you wish to do with machines and go from there. Make car parts. fixtures, custom decorative items, machine repair parts, gun parts and modification, become a job shop or what?

You will learn more and get more experience working in a shop than spending weeks turning what you might imagine on a lathe. In addition your wallet likely to run low before your imagination does.
Guess the lathe and mill a fair start as the mill can also be the drill press. But a light mill is a drill press and might on a good day mill wood or aluminium.

Basic manual shop is a lathe , mill, drill press and a saw. To get closer than .003(in general) you will need a surface grinder. Measuring you need a caliper, a smooth true surface to be your plate check. set of 123 blocks, lathe fish gauge, set of gauge blocks, protractor… and so much more.

Way too much to just go blindly with not knowing where to start, Decent lathe is perhaps a 9 x 24’ but I think 10” x 36(+) a better starting lathe. With that having a 3+4 jaw chuck, a steady, thread cutting and being in fair to good condition. Avoid a toy lathe as that may ruin your interest in machining

Bruce Nelson · Feb 18, 2017

Monarchist said:
So long as you avoid hobby-grade tool discussion, there is no barrier to your being here to learn.

Forget 'model' See what good-old iron can be found where you are or is transportable enough for a go-fetch. Save your cash-money for TOOLING. And of course a bit of metal.

You'll need Australian advice on both of those, and it exists here, even if not the same side of the landmass as yerself.

Find yourself an inexpensive horizontal mill of industrial, not 'hobby' flavour, no one much cares you are a 'newbie'.

Such a mill will see to it you won't BE a newbie for long, anyway..

Consider Monarchist's recommendation, then do the exact opposite: get a screw cutting metal lathe, like any South Bend. That should be the newby's first purchase.

Monarchist · Feb 18, 2017

Guys:

Last year I completed a 6 month machining pre-apprenticeship course after having done an unrelated degree, and have since been looking for an apprenticeship

Australian courses of that sort are not empty hours. He took a degree as well.

Doesn't matter in WHAT. He can research, he can read, he can work to a schedule not his own, he had to deliver on subjects not always to his liking.

He doesn't HAVE to go back to Junior HS level and nought but a feel-good SB lathe and start over.

Mill with Jacobs, a modest ER or TG collet set, and lo and beheld, horizontals do drills, reamers, endmills, salvaged boring & surfacing heads, and cheap flycutters without staging a wildcat strike.

Surplus HSS end mills, holders, and cutters are all over the place. Cheap mill to tool if only because it dines out well on the economic equivalent of leftovers and table scraps. Learn clamping before need of a vise. Get YOUR head around concepts and setup where the mill cannot. Vertical head is a luxury, not a necessity.

"First comes good, then comes fast" applies to thinking as well as making chips.

MAKE some of the mill's tooling right on it, carry a sample of your work and a few photos to the next interview.

Might get that elusive job a lot more easily.

Carry in a set of pin punches, a bitching nice "billet" flashlight, or hand-turned fountain pen barrel off the SB / clone?

Get a yawn. They've seen it all before.

Do not get a job.

Differentiate yourself from the herd.

Learn, grow, move onward at your own best pace, not that of the least common denominator.
Push your limits yourself, don't wait for permission.

It pays better in confidence. It pays better in happiness. It pays better in security. It pays better in money.

A great deal better.

Beginner looking to buy first machine for home shop

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