Best School for Tool & Die in Ontario, Canada?

I'm not sure under which heading to file this thread, so I've put it into General, and will defer to the moderator's judgement about where it should be placed.

I'm wondering if anyone here has an opinion on which of the tool & die pre-apprenticeship programs in Ontario, Canada is the most prudent?

I'm currently a woodworker in my early 30s looking to transition to the machining industry. My areas of interest include tool & die, general machining, and maintenance/repair machining. I have some personal experience working in my home shop (as well as the usual sense of workmanship, order of operations, and methods of measurement you learn with any trade), but understand that some level personal investment is required (often in the form of a pre-apprenticeship program these days...) to attract the attention of employers who are willing to take on an apprentice.

Thoughts? Specifically from fellow Canadians with relevant perspective on the matter?

Thanks.

Welcome, it's good to see younger guys getting into the trade.

First, where are you located? As you probably know, most of the manufacturing in Ontario takes place probably within 100km of Toronto.

Seeing as you already have some experience, I wouldn't bother with a pre-apprenticeship course. I would be handing out resumes to small jobs shops. There you'll learn more in a month than a year at school. Once you get a job, then you can register as an apprentice.

I would recommend Seneca or Sheridan College. They both have a variety of good programs ranging from 1-3 years. I teach part time at Seneca and I know most of the graduates are employed right out of school. I do know that a lot of employers go directly to the colleges when looking for new hires.

Good for you with doing some investigating .. shows you have something on the ball.
Tool and Die Programs at Ontario Colleges | ontariocolleges.ca

Im from the states so not much help..Be in top 10% of class or better, Never use your cell in class, take notes,
On the QT (Not in class ask the professor if he might give you a letter. Yes you should be deserving of that or don't even ask...

*Might as well start boning up on math skill in the waiting. You know there will be plenty of that.
Might pick up some trade magazines, perhaps even read a high school machine tool and tool theory book. Might learn lath thread cutting and squaring parts on a surface grinder and mill, and reading measuring in the waiting, couple days on each should get you a feel. buy a book is much better than PM for the new guy.

Change you life style if needed.. the big and best shops give an interview that is as much about the person as the skill..So you need to be the best choice on a few fronts...I donate some time to Scouts Canada beats I like bar fighting.

OT: Scouts Canada is a boys and girls together activity , not boy Scouts and Girl Scouts separate. We took out troop to the last CanAm and it was a great event,

I'm vaguely familiar with Seneca's program, but did not know about Sheridan's. I've worked with a lot of Sheridan graduates in the woodworking trade and found them competent, but commuting to their Oakville campus seems like a bit of a pain.

Seneca and George Brown are equally close to me. What's your take on George Brown's program?

In response to Rapid_Tech's question, I'm located in the GTA, but am very interested in relocating to the east of Toronto, especially to the Peterborough area.

I take it you're in the east end of the GTA. There's quite a few machine shops in Scarborough and out in Oshawa. Are you planning on moving to Peterborough while you're in school? If you are, that commute is going to suck.

I would still recommend that you forget about the pre-apprenticeship and go find work in a job shop where you'll have a mix of different type of work. Not only do I think it'll be a waste of time, it'll also be costing you money, in tuition and money you could have been earning. Spend maybe 6 months in the industry to make sure it is truly what you want to do and then ask about an apprenticeship. Yeah, you'll start out sweeping chips, cleaning machines all the usual crappy jobs but be observant. If you have a question, ask, or if you feel it's stupid, come on here and ask it. Pay attention to how people do things and why they do it that way. When you feel you have nothing else to learn at that company, find another job and start learning there.

Where in Ontario do you live?

Stan

mynameisusername said:

I'm vaguely familiar with Seneca's program, but did not know about Sheridan's. I've worked with a lot of Sheridan graduates in the woodworking trade and found them competent, but commuting to their Oakville campus seems like a bit of a pain.

Seneca and George Brown are equally close to me. What's your take on George Brown's program?

In response to Rapid_Tech's question, I'm located in the GTA, but am very interested in relocating to the east of Toronto, especially to the Peterborough area.

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I have heard that the George Brown program is light on the practical side of things. Other then that, I don't know much about it.

@Steveo:

I spoke briefly with a Seneca rep last week and they strongly encouraged me to come to the Open House at the Jane campus on April 1st. Will you be there that day? I'm leaning heavily toward Seneca's program; Sheridan's location's inconvenient and I'm not interested in learning while they resolve issues associated with moving campuses this summer (been there, done that...).

I have dozens of questions regarding entry into the trade. My current trade as a woodworker is a deregulated trade and the Red Seal is only beneficial for securing teaching roles. Is journeyman status even a requirement for (good) machining employment?

My interests are in precision; maintenance; and job-shop machining. I'm interested in completing the apprenticeship, and I understand the program is intended as a pre-apprenticeship training, but will that count towards first-year? If I'm interested in precision machining, should I focus on tool making apprenticeship, rather than a general machinist designation, even though my interests tilt to both?

Regarding my experience, I got into machining to repair and service antique woodworking machinery. I have a small Clausing mill and a Logan lathe on which I've taught myself the basics by making my own tools, fixtures, and doing repairs to machines for myself and two acquaintances, but my interests in metalworking have expanded significantly and I want into the trade. I have transferable fabricating skills from the woodworking trade, but I have no experience with professional metalworking.

Rapid_Tech's suggestion to just start applying as a lot of appeal, but I'm completely uncertain about how to make a good impression and effectively solicit an apprenticeship. I'm on Apprentice Search, but there haven't been any openings yet. I strongly suspect I'm too naive about professional metalworking to be useful without getting up to speed via a program specifically geared to industry, unless an employer is especially sympathetic...

SBAER said:

Where in Ontario do you live?

Stan

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Currently I'm in Toronto, but would very much like to move east or west of the city. I would very much like to relocate back to Peterborough. K&W isn't a bad place either.

There has got to be an old timer up there looking to retire in 3-5 years that you could apprentice under and then take over his business or buy it. In any blue collar trade, I'd seriously look at investing the due diligence required to find a good fit within an existing company. Hell, aside from the hourly base rate you'd earn, they might even pay for your school or any certifications down the road.

Just signing up for school is too easy. They are a business, just like a recruiter for the military, ofcourse they want you to sign up and they will tell you everything related to doing so. It is still going to be up to you to learn from square one and build your own future. All things being equal, I'd rather receive a check and learn from a journeymen 1 on 1.

I would suggest taking some night school courses in CAD and CAM will not be a waste. Learning Solidworks or Inventor and basic CAM programming will be useful whether you get a job working in machining or many other manufacturing jobs including woodworking.

Why do you want to get out of woodworking? Not suggesting it is a bad idea but maybe a transition rather than starting over can be a good plan. What type of woodworking are you working in? Running a CNC router is very similar to running a machining center but is different at the same time. It may be easier to find employment with your experience and some CNC basics in a different type of woodworking that as one of many inexperienced graduates of a community college.

If you are self motivated, you can teach yourself a lot more than any college can.

I fully and wholeheartedly agree with Jimmy above regarding the business drive of "educational" institutions. I'm not just talking out my ass either. I've spent quite a few years in post secondary education in Ontario and have done well there. Do I credit my current knowledge base to it? Absolutely not.

My vote is to pound the pavement. Go in and ask to talk with an owner about what you're looking for and what they would look for if hiring someone. Respect thier time and ask if now is a good time or if they'd maybe let you buy them lunch in exchange for some answers. Be honest and expect to get shot down a lot too. If you find someone willing to give you a chance, you will start at the bottom and it will take time for you to learn and to prove your worth.

The apprenticeship system in Ontario is very broken and outdated and the College of Trades is a joke. They are both obstacles necessary to overcome if you want a trade certificate.

Don't be surprised if you start finding that not all your expectations are being met. Try to focus on the aspects that give you the most satisfaction. Above all, don't let the old jaded hacks you'll be surrounded by bring you down. You will be required to respect many of them, but always question (quietly, in your head) and do your own research.

Pattnmaker said:

I would suggest taking some night school courses in CAD and CAM will not be a waste. Learning Solidworks or Inventor and basic CAM programming will be useful whether you get a job working in machining or many other manufacturing jobs including woodworking.

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All of my CAD experience is in Rhino and SketchUp, with some AutoCAD. I've experimented with OnShape and SolidWorks, and liked them, but found them unsuitable for millwork/architecture. You're probably right about the CAM though. Part of the appeal of the Seneca program is that it will do exactly that.

Why do you want to get out of woodworking? Not suggesting it is a bad idea but maybe a transition rather than starting over can be a good plan. What type of woodworking are you working in? Running a CNC router is very similar to running a machining center but is different at the same time. It may be easier to find employment with your experience and some CNC basics in a different type of woodworking that as one of many inexperienced graduates of a community college.

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I worked as a custom architectural millworker, which is more demanding than mere cabinetmaking: I built everything from kitchens, windows, stairs, solid wood doors, furniture, etc. I even did a few wooden boat repairs. I love the woodworking trade, but grew viscerally disappointed by the small-minded vanity of the commissions. Last summer I did two jobs, back-to-back, that were back-breaking and joint-straining in their fabrication; heart-breakingly gluttonous in their waste of beautiful material for frivolous architectural details; and, worst of all, the clients contemptuous of my existence, as a member of the Great Unwashed, on their property. I decided I was done. I'm more interested in fabricating for utility and the broader benefit of the 99%, rather than enabling the conspicuous consumption of the Affluent Bored. My ideal arc is to pursue tool & die work for the medical industry, but I suspect that's rare work that demands years of experience. I'm also drawn to maintenance and repair machining. Rush repairs of damaged components to get a plant back into production is also an appealing challenge.

I see you're from Hamilton, and I'm intrigued by your name. Pursuing pattern-making held a lot of interest for me a few years ago because it's a good confluence of utility and woodworking that motivates me. I experimented with making my own patterns and having them cast at the Merrickville foundry. I loved the mental exercise of calculating draft and shrinkage, and the almost total absence of right-angles. I was keen to go talk to Dan Peace of the Dominion Pattern Works in Hamilton, but grew a bit too cynical about the future of that sub-trade of woodworking. I'm sure that once the surface finish of 3D prints improves, wood patterns will vanish, so I decided not to pursue it professionally.

Unless you know otherwise?

PM sent as well with some more info.

Sparky961 said:

If you are self motivated, you can teach yourself a lot more than any college can.

I fully and wholeheartedly agree with Jimmy above regarding the business drive of "educational" institutions. I'm not just talking out my ass either. I've spent quite a few years in post secondary education in Ontario and have done well there. Do I credit my current knowledge base to it? Absolutely not.

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Agreed ...but one thing I learned attending academic institutions is that you knowledge base is just a primer on the subject, but the networking you do while attending is vitally important. All of my woodworking opportunities came through academic contacts, rather than applications. It's the reason why people go to ivy league schools: you're there to socialize with the people in the socio-economic class you'll be working with in the future, not to learn anything.

My vote is to pound the pavement. Go in and ask to talk with an owner about what you're looking for and what they would look for if hiring someone. Respect thier time and ask if now is a good time or if they'd maybe let you buy them lunch in exchange for some answers. Be honest and expect to get shot down a lot too. If you find someone willing to give you a chance, you will start at the bottom and it will take time for you to learn and to prove your worth.

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I'm kinda hoping that's what this forum's for, as a first step. Anyone interested in fostering the next generation of machinists probably offers advice here.

The apprenticeship system in Ontario is very broken and outdated and the College of Trades is a joke. They are both obstacles necessary to overcome if you want a trade certificate.

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I've heard as such, but never stated so aptly!

Don't be surprised if you start finding that not all your expectations are being met. Try to focus on the aspects that give you the most satisfaction. Above all, don't let the old jaded hacks you'll be surrounded by bring you down. You will be required to respect many of them, but always question (quietly, in your head) and do your own research.

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Ohhh, I'm old enough to be sufficiently cynical about expectations anymore...

Sparky961 said:

PM sent as well with some more info.

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Hey, awesome! Thanks!

I sent a reply, but this forum's sending confirmation's a bit unclear. Did you receive it?

I attended the Seneca program and I believe there is no better training program in Ontario, possibly Canada. It is a solid beginning to a lifetime of learning. Job placement at the conclusion is a real plus. Highly recommended!