Building Shop! Need Your Input...

Hello lads! Here's the question(s): My existing shop is 50'x30' with a 20' ceiling and 12' sliding door. I'm looking to double the size of the shop to 3,000sf from its current size of 1500sf. I am a retired gunsmith and a relatively small area will be allocated to my gunsmithing lathe and mill. I intend to start buying used European machine tools and related accessories and will use the balance of the space for the storage and rebuilding of these machines. Most will be resold, but some will find a new home in my shop. I like to rebuild and renovate machine tools - it's something I love to do. With this said, I love having lots of room to work. Oh, we are dealing with clear-span metal buildings here. I need to make some decisions about insulation, cooling, heating, electric power and so forth??? I am in a very rural area in NE Oklahoma in the Ozark foothills. So, no 3 Phase power is available. What conversion equipment is best? Are solar panels a good idea or terribly expensive?
Cooling and heating are gonna eat my lunch in electric bills. Any good ways to economize? Finally, should I excavate a bit and install a dock-high door given that there will be a good bit of shipping back and forth going on?

I know a lot of these topics have been talked about in other posts. What I'm looking for are specific reccomendations



like a good brand name for electric devices, insulation panels, cooling equipment etc... .

I've tried to upload a photo of the building site, but it wouldn't work. Maybe I'll try again later. Thanks in advance for any reccomendations, thoughts or ideas you may have.

Squier





Sent Using Tapatalk - Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma

OldSquier said:

.....................................So, no 3 Phase power is available. What conversion equipment is best? Are solar panels a good idea or terribly expensive?
Cooling and heating are gonna eat my lunch in electric bills. Any good ways to economize? Finally, should I excavate a bit and install a dock-high door given that there will be a good bit of shipping back and forth going on?

I know a lot of these topics have been talked about in other posts. What I'm looking for are specific reccomendations

..................

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Honestly, these subjects have been beat to death in many threads on PM. Do some searches in the General, and Member and Shop Photos forums.

Search on things like "Phase Perfect" and "VFD" for your 3 phase issue, "spray foam insulation" for addressing your heating and cooling and those threads will probably lead you to some previous discussions of "what things should I do when I build my new shop".

Steve

SteveF said:

Honestly, these subjects have been beat to death in many threads on PM. Do some searches in the General, and Member and Shop Photos forums.

Search on things like "Phase Perfect" and "VFD" for your 3 phase issue, "spray foam insulation" for addressing your heating and cooling and those threads will probably lead you to some previous discussions of "what things should I do when I build my new shop".

Steve

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Steve, thanks for your reply. As I mentioned, I recognize that these topics have been discussed. I also mentioned that I'm interested in specificity in any replies. This means that if you used a specific product as opposed to say "spray insulation" I would appreciate knowing about it. I also asked for opinions about solar power and a dock-high door. These, to my knowledge have not been widely addressed. I'm not interested in a cornucopia of non-specific ramblings. Naturally, anyone can refrain from posting a reply. But, my asking for pointed replies with useful product or procedural information isn't going to give you a hare lip. Not trying to ruffle feathers at all.

Squire




Sent Using Tapatalk - Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma

IMHO you should definitely have a loading dock...two problems, one is, exactly what height, second is your level site, which may require much excavating, drainage, etc. A big old forklift is probably more practical.

I have an off-grid solar power system. It is absolutely not cost-effective to do this unless utility power is unavailable, or unless you want to be able to bitch without hypocrisy about energy issues, or unless you want to keep machining after TEOTWAWKI. (I fall under all three, however my system is not (yet) anywhere near adequate to run the shop, except for brief periods on a sunny day.) Depending on your state's laws, a grid-intertied system MAY have a ROI, but it will be many years out.

Solar power for hot water is fine but electric is a scam unless you have no power nearby.
PV is a total scam they, currently, make the power company buy it at retail rates and resell at a wholesale so they lose money. Eventually they will force solar to be sold at wholesale rates. Look at you bill only about 1/2 of the cost is power. the rest is shipment etc. You will do better to put 30,000 into a mutual fund and use the dividends to pay part of the power bill.
Of course my town does not allow carports but they might just allow a solar panel support that happens to be tall enough to park a car under. I would put a slab under it to keep down weeds.

Are there a lot of European machine tools to rebuild in rural NE Oklahoma?

magneticanomaly said:

IMHO you should definitely have a loading dock...two problems, one is, exactly what height, second is your level site, which may require much excavating, drainage, etc. A big old forklift is probably more practical.

I have an off-grid solar power system. It is absolutely not cost-effective to do this unless utility power is unavailable, or unless you want to be able to bitch without hypocrisy about energy issues, or unless you want to keep machining after TEOTWAWKI. (I fall under all three, however my system is not (yet) anywhere near adequate to run the shop, except for brief periods on a sunny day.) Depending on your state's laws, a grid-intertied system MAY have a ROI, but it will be many years out.

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Hey Magnetic!

Thanks for the reply brother. The site looks like it's level in the photo and it largely is. But it falls-off about 4' from the existing building. So, excavation might not be too bad. Luckily, my best-friend is a dirt-work genius. There is nothing he can't do if it involves moving dirt. There is a heck of a lot of rock, though, just under the surface. Oh well. I agree that a big, hairy forklift lies in my future. Shifting machines around sort of makes this a necessity, huh? I appreciate your opinion. Maybe both the dock-high door and the forklift are gonna be necessary.

As for solar, your comments sort of confirm what I've been afraid of -- a big cash outlay for very modest returns in the far distant future. If I'm lucky.

Thanks again for your opinions. I appreciate hearing from you.

Best regards

Squire

Sent Using Tapatalk - Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma

You want "specific's" and yet your location is "Aland Islands"

And yet you keep posting sumthin about "Oklahoma Cherokee nation"

You need to fess up some more info if you want "specific information"

Cherokee nation ? Is my tax money paying for all this ?

magneticanomaly said:

IMHO you should definitely have a loading dock...two problems, one is, exactly what height, second is your level site, which may require much excavating, drainage, etc. A big old forklift is probably more practical.

I have an off-grid solar power system. It is absolutely not cost-effective to do this unless utility power is unavailable, or unless you want to be able to bitch without hypocrisy about energy issues, or unless you want to keep machining after TEOTWAWKI. (I fall under all three, however my system is not (yet) anywhere near adequate to run the shop, except for brief periods on a sunny day.) Depending on your state's laws, a grid-intertied system MAY have a ROI, but it will be many years out.

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Magnetic, I forgot to mention the drainage. A point you raised. It's gonna definitely be an issue. The site of the buildings will be about 125' from the highest point on the acreage. It's probably a 25-30' rise from the building site. I don't know squat about drainage control, but it's already damp around the current building. I need to get some solid answers on what to do about this, probably before I expand.

Squier

Sent Using Tapatalk - Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma

digger doug said:

You want "specific's" and yet your location is "Aland Islands"

And yet you keep posting sumthin about "Oklahoma Cherokee nation"

You need to fess up some more info if you want "specific information"

Cherokee nation ? Is my tax money paying for all this ?

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Howdy Digger,

I have no idea why my residence is listed as Aland Islands. Nor has this obscure fact have any relevance to my post

I am a Native American of Choctaw and Cherokee descent. I am an enrolled member of the Choctaw Nation of Oklahoma. I reside within the boundaries of the Cherokee Nation. Under Federal law, we are sovereign nations within our boundaries. I would acquaint you with the particulars of the relationship between my people and the U.S. government if I had time and we're so inclined. I'm not. I assure you, however, that none of your tax money is involved in my post to this forum. You are clearly looking for a fight. If you were here, you would get one. As you are not, let me invite you to go somewhere I am not.

Squire

OldSquier said:

Hey Magnetic!

Thanks for the reply brother. The site looks like it's level in the photo and it largely is. But it falls-off about 4' from the existing building. So, excavation might not be too bad. Luckily, my best-friend is a dirt-work genius. There is nothing he can't do if it involves moving dirt. There is a heck of a lot of rock, though, just under the surface. Oh well. I agree that a big, hairy forklift lies in my future. Shifting machines around sort of makes this a necessity, huh? I appreciate your opinion. Maybe both the dock-high door and the forklift are gonna be necessary.

As for solar, your comments sort of confirm what I've been afraid of -- a big cash outlay for very modest returns in the far distant future. If I'm lucky.

Thanks again for your opinions. I appreciate hearing from you.

Best regards

Squire

Sent Using Tapatalk - Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma

Click to expand...

Sent Using Tapatalk - Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma

ewlsey said:

Are there a lot of European machine tools to rebuild in rural NE Oklahoma?

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Nope, my buddy and I plan to travel about as necessary to buy machines. We are both retired with lots of time on our hands.

Cheers,

Squier

Sent Using Tapatalk - Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma

Bill D said:

Solar power for hot water is fine but electric is a scam unless you have no power nearby.
PV is a total scam they, currently, make the power company buy it at retail rates and resell at a wholesale so they lose money. Eventually they will force solar to be sold at wholesale rates. Look at you bill only about 1/2 of the cost is power. the rest is shipment etc. You will do better to put 30,000 into a mutual fund and use the dividends to pay part of the power bill.
Of course my town does not allow carports but they might just allow a solar panel support that happens to be tall enough to park a car under. I would put a slab under it to keep down weeds.

Click to expand...

Bill, thank you for your observations. I sure wish solar held some promise, but it looks like I'm barking up the wrong tree.

Cheers,

Squier

Sent Using Tapatalk - Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma

You asked for brand recommendations: Square D is good electrical gear. Go with QO series panel board(s) and breakers. Good stuff.

Solar is hardly a scam. But the economics are affected by tax credits and and policy. And that can be affected by the morons in Washington D.C. and the morons in your state capitol. And both of those are just bought by ALEC and other lobbyists.

OldSquier said:

Bill, thank you for your observations. I sure wish solar held some promise, but it looks like I'm barking up the wrong tree.

Cheers,

Squier

Sent Using Tapatalk - Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma

Click to expand...

I think Bill's comments about the economic viability of solar are spot on. About a decade ago I was involved in a project where we used evacuated tube type solar water heaters. IIRC two banks of evacuated tubes would provide enough hot water for a typical residence. The main things you need are an insulated water tank with a heat exchanger coil in it and a small circulation pump.

I'm not sure if using evacuated tubes to heat water for in floor radiant heating would be viable or not. I've heard folks say that a standard residential water heater will drive some radiant heating installations, so it seems like it would be worth doing the calcs to see if evacuated tubes could be a substitute heat source.


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kb0thn said:

You asked for brand recommendations: Square D is good electrical gear. Go with QO series panel board(s) and breakers. Good stuff.

Solar is hardly a scam. But the economics are affected by tax credits and and policy. And that can be affected by the morons in Washington D.C. and the morons in your state capitol. And both of those are just bought by ALEC and other lobbyists.

Click to expand...

Kb0thn,

Thanks for the "Square D" reccomendation. This is precisely the kind of information I was hoping for.

No, I didn't think solar power was a scam, but it seems from the responses, including yours, that there isn't a very good chance that I would come out ahead by doing it. Sometimes there are programs operated by my tribe and others that provide incentives to tribal members to do things like solar in their businesses and homes. I'll have to check on that.

Thanks again for your thoughtful reply.

Best regards,

Squier

Sent Using Tapatalk - Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma

jdsmith said:

I think Bill's comments about the economic viability of solar are spot on. About a decade ago I was involved in a project where we used evacuated tube type solar water heaters. IIRC two banks of evacuated tubes would provide enough hot water for a typical residence. The main things you need are an insulated water tank with a heat exchanger coil in it and a small circulation pump.

I'm not sure if using evacuated tubes to heat water for in floor radiant heating would be viable or not. I've heard folks say that a standard residential water heater will drive some radiant heating installations, so it seems like it would be worth doing the calcs to see if evacuated tubes could be a substitute heat source.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Click to expand...

JD...you raise a very interesting possibility. Virtually no one does radiant heat around here. I'm not a complete stranger to the idea, however. I have a nephew in California who is a building contractor. When he was an apprentice carpenter in San Francisco, he worked for a fella who offered radiant heat to homebuilders long before others did. My nephew was trained to do the work and he's since spoken to me about it several times. I'll call on him to see what he thinks costs/benefits might be for my application.

Thanks for you reply JD. I appreciate your help.

Best regards,

Squire




Sent Using Tapatalk - Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma

The Aland Islands location is a default when you sign up on PM.. Look at the top of the page and you will see a tab for "Settings" Click on that and then edit your "Profile" entering your location... Please try to be little specific about your location, Like "North East of Tulsa" as it's a big state

As for making three phase... Phase-Craft on Ebay is a good source for a RPC control. I have two of his and they are very well made. Add a used 3 phase motor and you can have a 10 HP RPC ready to go in about an hour and spend less than 500.00.

swatkins said:

The Aland Islands location is a default when you sign up on PM.. Look at the top of the page and you will see a tab for "Settings" Click on that and then edit your "Profile" entering your location... Please try to be little specific about your location, Like "North East of Tulsa" as it's a big state

As for making three phase... Phase-Craft on Ebay is a good source for a RPC control. I have two of his and they are very well made. Add a used 3 phase motor and you can have a 10 HP RPC ready to go in about an hour and spend less than 500.00.

Click to expand...

Hi Swatkins!

Thank you for your reccomendations - I've got it all written down in my Moleskin notebook.

When I read your post, I immediately went to "settings" only to find that there was no place whatever listing my whereabouts. When I went to settings, my "Public Profile" wasn't really about my profile at all. Rather, it concerned my membership in other machining forums and I was given a choice to disclose to my membership, or not, to the public. That's it. Nothing else remotely related to my location. I scratched my head and cogitated on this for a time and finally decided it must be because I connect with forums like this using "Tapatalk". So....I logged in without using Tapatalk. "Settings" then took me to a page that involved setting "Google Chrome" preferences. Of course, this is nothing to do with the matter at hand. I still think Tapatalk is the problem. So, I'll make a point of emailing Admin here for some guidance. I am sorry if the inaccurate location has given rise to any problems. I frankly had no idea. I appreciate your help in resolving the problem. BTW, I am in Cherokee Co., OK, appx. 70 miles NE of Tulsa, and 15 miles NE of Tahlequah on the Illinois River. We are about 40 miles west of Fayetteville, AR and South of Joplin, MO.

Thanks again for your post.

Squire

Sent Using Tapatalk - Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma

Loading docks, not a fan. I have had the need of a loading dock exactly once in 6 years, to unload my big forklift.

Unless you are loading van trailers a standard dock is not well suited, a member here has a dock like a boat slip with access to the sides of a flat bed. With machinery side loading is far more common than not. Also the area is either too high or low half the time!

Solar, from your picture even if was viable the area is too heavily wooded to make practical.

Insulation; a hundred different ways to do it, do the best you can to minimize air movement. Do you plan on heating and cooling with forced air ? The better you insulate the easier it will be to work comfortably. You will spend more up front but over time it pay dividends.

Steve

Use a computer and a program such as Chrome or IE to login to the site and you will find the place to change your information easily.