Can't find a Cleveland Twist Drill item? Piloted 82 degree countersinks.

atomarc · May 2, 2018

I have a set of Cleveland piloted countersinks and a set of counterbores. I use these for SHCS and socket head, flat head screws.

I can find new counterbores but cannot find piloted 82 degree countersinks anywhere. These have a fixed pilot in the diameter of the appropriate clearance hole and a body diameter that matches the OD of the flat socket head fastener.

I'm guessing they quit making these things. Here is an example of what I have. Anyone seen a source for these things..they aren't run-of-the-mill counterbores, they're specific to socket head fasteners dimensions.

New Cleveland No. 4 Machine Screw 82deg Piloted Counter Sink, .111", HSS, 875, Plourde's Toolbox, Industrial & Business Surplus

Stuart

thall · May 2, 2018

McMaster-Carr

thermite · May 2, 2018

atomarc said:
I'm guessing they quit making these things.

Probably not so long as DoD, GSA, or Aerospace, Navy, or other contractors to the US Gov use them, too.

Acme sold CTD to Greenfield, 1994. Admin & legals were wound up by 2000, body-corporate wound down. Greenfield has been a part of Dalian Top Eastern out of China since 2009.

Dalian owns and operates US factories with US workers partly so they can sell into contracts that specify "US made" goods.

If these items are among those, one of their plants still makes them under one or the other of a dozen or so "old line" famous US names now Chinese owned. If no need of "made in USA?" their plants in China or several other places may make them.

Or NOT. Sales are too slow, items are dropped

Dalian didn't export the JOBS to China. Only the profits. They've been doing the same in Europe, BTW. Some German brands are Chinese owned now, too.

Gonna get us one way, the other, or "ALL of the above", I guess.

At least they have been upgrading the equipment, putting in better managers, and paying better where the old US owners had done "NONE of the above".

atomarc · May 2, 2018

thall said:
McMaster-Carr

Better read my original post again..closely.

Stuart

L Vanice · May 2, 2018

thall said:
McMaster-Carr

Works better if you search on piloted countersinks instead of counterbores. McMaster-Carr

For decades, I have had a few Weldon piloted two-flute counterbores and countersinks for common machine screw sizes. I think they used the Tu-Lip trade mark. I also have many Weldon "zero flute" (diagonal cross hole) countersinks, some with pilots. Is Weldon still in business?

Larry

thermite · May 2, 2018

L Vanice said:
Is Weldon still in business?

Larry

Don't think so. Everyone and his dog, BIG Kaiser to roadside scrap monger is selling HIS brand of "Weldon.." this and that with no "Weldon [STYLE | TYPE ]".

If they are around even as a "property", no one is protecting their marque.

A search on "Weldon side lock" got me into navigable waterways right away, FWIW.

Apropo of nothing much: Ward-Leonard yet lives.

Despite the crutch of the internet, companies we presume dead and gone have survived, unremarked if not also unmarked. Some haven't even motored-off into unrelated fields, still have parts. Both of Dumore and McGonegal competing TP grinders, for example. Both still doing what they've done from Day One, and long-since "on the net", too. Even so, anyone as "scores" either used TP grinder off Bay ass u me's they've got pre-beaker trader tin-mine grave goods and must make parts. Go Ogle figure.

Others we presume still active have been gone for a decade if not four whilst we re-sell their cloak for the fifth time, see enough goods in-channel we figure they MUST still be shipping new.

Blinders. Daggone things are always hanging around, eager to self-install.

atomarc · May 2, 2018

I'm pretty good at searching and have found nothing like what I want. The items I have now...a set of countersinks from #4 through 1/2" were purchased from a Cleveland twist drill distributor. I think the original boxes were marked "Cle-Line". I have found nothing anywhere that approximates these things and as I said in my original post, they are not generic countersinks, they are specific to a fastener size.

The little picture in the Ebay ad is exactly what they are and what I have and what I want a source for. I think I'm up a creek without an Evenrude! :eek:

Stuart

thermite · May 2, 2018

atomarc said:
they are specific to a fastener size.

Are they also specific to a fastener FAMILY? Or at least commonly used with a specific head shape and volume application where one family dominates, even if the shape is otherwise general-purpose?

Might be easier to find if so connected?

As with Forstner bits. Found-everywhere "cabinet door hinge pockets" spring to mind, even though the bits have other uses.

Update: Checking globally.. have found lots and LOTS of folks out there making stock and custom goods that may or may not do the same job, or even do it better, exotic Carbides, insane speeds and materials and all.

But Oy! Nothing as straightforward simple, nor inexpensive so far as what you already have.

cyanidekid · May 2, 2018

How about these, they are available in 82 deg and 100deg;

Air Capital Microstop and Countersink Kit, Model# 651 | Northern Tool + Equipment

search “1/4-28 aircraft countersinks 82”

L Vanice · May 2, 2018

thermite said:
Are they also specific to a fastener FAMILY? Or at least commonly used with a specific head shape and volume application where one family dominates, even if the shape is otherwise general-purpose?

Might be easier to find if so connected?

As with Forstner bits. Found-everywhere "cabinet door hinge pockets" spring to mind, even though the bits have other uses.

Update: Checking globally.. have found lots and LOTS of folks out there making stock and custom goods that may or may not do the same job, or even do it better, exotic Carbides, insane speeds and materials and all.

But Oy! Nothing as straightforward simple, nor inexpensive so far as what you already have.

The pilot diameter matches the max fastener body size. Mine are all numbered machine screw or fractional inch sizes, but there must be metric versions somewhere. The family or type of fastener is flat or oval head, whether a screw or a rivet. Flat heads are self-centering in their c'sink, so there is not much point in having the pilot larger than the fastener body. The OD of the c'sink should be as large as the max diameter of the fastener head and allow the fastener to be flush with the surrounding surface. In other words, the c'sink should go a little deeper than the corner of the bit, making a shallow c'bore above the angled cut. That style of recess looks neater than using a bigger c'sink OD and cutting deep enough to leave the fastener head flush, surrounded by an angled recess.

The counterbores I own for fillister head cap screws may have body size or oversize pilots, as machined assemblies are made both ways. In either case, the pilot on the c/bore needs to match the drilled hole.

Larry

atomarc · May 2, 2018

Larry,

I'm not sure I understand your post but I think I do! Yes, the pilot diameter is the same diameter as the fastener clearance drill size. The OD of the cutter is the same as the OD of the fastener head, in this case a 82 degree flat socket head. This means you could ideally shove the countersink in until it disappeared and the hole would never be larger than the OD of the head of the fastener. You don't have to watch your depth for fear of making a wide taper.

I think this is what your said!

Stuart

thermite · May 2, 2018

L Vanice said:
...there must be metric versions somewhere.

It was the Metric ones I looked for "second". My favourite "candy store" in suburban Zeurich that I can't seem to pop into without popping out with packages, a SE grin, and a $500+ "lump" on my plastic!

Swiss tools, German - wotever, all lovely stuff, no compromises stocked.

Germane to Stuart's needs, I never had c'sinks cut stainless so well nor last so long as those I bought there. "Conventional" FHMS shapes though.

thermite · May 2, 2018

atomarc said:
This means you could ideally shove the countersink in until it disappeared and the hole would never be larger than the OD of the head of the fastener. You don't have to watch your depth for fear of making a wide taper.

YES!

You can hit the depth any given fastener and assembly needs, but not even being ABLE to make an over-wide c'sink if you tried to do is exactly what makes then so valuable and such low-stress time-savers!

If one needs them at all, of course...

guest · May 2, 2018

I do a lot of that type of holes that the OP is doing. What I do is take a regular countersink and put it in a 5C collet spin fixture and grind the OD down to what I need.

I got rid of my surface grinder, if I have to make more I'll use the tool post grinder on the lathe.

But no pilot, so it's not a drill press tool.

On metrics, you can get 100 degree long center drills from KEO, you could grind the OD to what you need.

cyanidekid · May 2, 2018

If you hit the link above, the countersinks are piloted, and also depth limited by the “cage” around the sink, (adujustable), and it helps line you up square to the surface as well.

What more could you ask, but someone else do it?

Aejgx6 · May 2, 2018

I can make them for you. If you are interested shoot me a email to [email protected]

dian · May 3, 2018

thermite said:
It was the Metric ones I looked for "second". My favourite "candy store" in suburban Zeurich that I can't seem to pop into without popping out with packages, a SE grin, and a $500+ "lump" on my plastic!

Swiss tools, German - wotever, all lovely stuff, no compromises stocked.

Germane to Stuart's needs, I never had c'sinks cut stainless so well nor last so long as those I bought there. "Conventional" FHMS shapes though.

i wonder what store your talking about.

thermite · May 3, 2018

dian said:
i wonder what store your talking about.

Vanoli AG, Thalwil. We've had that chat, "right here, on PM"

Places of that sort may be rather ordinary for Swiss and German craftsman. You must have far better, yet.

By contrast, you'd have to know what it is like, USA, where we have Harbor Freight anchoring the bottom, Lowes. Menards, Home Depot, the auto parts store chains, TrueValue or Ace Hardware holding so-called "high ground" that is only a very tiny cut above.

HF trying to improve to a better grade of junk. The others try to cut their quality so as to move DOWNHILL to compete! Eventually, they meet in the middle, and it will all be much the same s**t, different "name brand" that is mostly a bad joke about what was once a good name.

Ordering online or by phone has long been a necessity, here. Most of us just don't have access to any form of "walk in" high grade tool supply stores anywhere close to our homes and businesses.

California has spawned Frys, and they are a gradually expanding National treasure. Fond memories of checking out with computer PCB, tools, test meters..and GROCERIES right in the same cart "back in the day!"

Even so, big country, few stores.

Walmart, Target, (both with groceries, BTW) or HF are everywhere else.

dian · May 4, 2018

i dont remember you mentioning it. actually i only see a vanoli in thalwil that sells kitchen and grill supplies and a rail building contractor. would be interesting to find out where you were, because its rather the other way around, walk in stores are far in between in this country, im even having trouble getting screws (had to get some nylon screw from the chinese recently, nobody has ground pins, etc.) at least you guys seem to have a hardware store and an automotive store in every town. i dont know of anything like "napa" in driving distance from my place.

thermite · May 4, 2018

dian said:
i dont remember you mentioning it. actually i only see a vanoli in thalwil that sells kitchen and grill supplies and a rail building contractor. would be interesting to find out where you were, because its rather the other way around, walk in stores are far in between in this country, im even having trouble getting screws (had to get some nylon screw from the chinese recently, nobody has ground pins, etc.) at least you guys seem to have a hardware store and an automotive store in every town. i dont know of anything like "napa" in driving distance from my place.

Went and read it off the bar-coded label on the case of a German-made digital caliper, but that item ws purchased well over ten years ago. Saddened, as it seems CH has been subjected to the same homogenization of merchandise we saw here.

POS systems only restock what has high "turns" per week. Slower-moving goods are dropped.

Eventually, the only thing stocked in walk-in stores will be condoms, bug spray, detergents, soft drinks, beer, milk, eggs, snack foods and bum-fodder. Same pattern as our gas-station mini-marts already exhibit, extended to hardware.

All else will have been Amazoned, MMC'ed, Tirerack'ed, or Rockauto'ed.

Can't find a Cleveland Twist Drill item? Piloted 82 degree countersinks.

Diamond

Aluminum

Diamond

Diamond

Diamond

Diamond

Diamond

Diamond

Titanium

Diamond

Diamond

Diamond

Diamond

guest

Guest

Titanium

Cast Iron

Titanium

Diamond

Titanium

Diamond

Similar threads