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Career advice... Toolmaker?

ritzblitz

Aluminum
Joined
Apr 12, 2013
Location
Quakertown, PA
Hi guys,
I am at an interesting point in my life. I am nearly finished with my degree in kinesiology from Penn State, but I can't see myself using it any time soon, I've lost interest in prosthetics and orthotics. However, I enjoy machining and I've worked at a machine shop over school breaks since I was 15. I have done nearly everything in our shop including setting up Swiss turn lathes.

Now I am an apprentice to the shop foreman, who in my eyes is a highly skilled toolmaker. I'm going full time now due to the completion of my degree and the foreman wants to make me his right hand and continue teaching me the trade.

My question is this- is a toolmaker still a valuable skillet in this age where everything is cnc? I enjoy the difficulties of manual machining but a lot of it is too slow to be practical.

Even though our shop has a "tool room" how many other shops do?

Thanks guys!
Alex
 
im a journeyman toolmaker, and my main tool is a cnc mill. convince him to embrace the technology. i had to spend all of my apprenticeship on manual machines, the whole time begging for them to give me a cnc. it works. i make a lot of money doing tool room type work, as well as many others do here on PM. but you will always need a manual machine so dont dispell the old iron just because its "out dated". and if you want to be a good tool maker, make it your priority. go after it with everything you have. take pride in your work, and remember that it shldnt look like it was made in china.

as far as what shops have tool rooms? only the good ones.

good luck and godspeed.
 
uncledenny

im a journeyman toolmaker, and my main tool is a cnc mill. convince him to embrace the technology. i had to spend all of my apprenticeship on manual machines, the whole time begging for them to give me a cnc. it works. i make a lot of money doing tool room type work, as well as many others do here on PM. but you will always need a manual machine so dont dispell the old iron just because its "out dated". and if you want to be a good tool maker, make it your priority. go after it with everything you have. take pride in your work, and remember that it shldnt look like it was made in china.

as far as what shops have tool rooms? only the good ones.

good luck and godspeed.

hi alloutmx, where abouts in Roch? I graduated RIT Machine Tool Tech. prog. in 1983,now in NC.
 
Just wondering if it is possible for you to go out there and try to kill two birds with one stone. I never heard of kinesiology but I do know that there is some pretty high end machining in orthopedic implants, fake joints and the likes, perhaps you can find a company where your knowledge of both joints and manufacturing techniques for the types of body parts that don't just grow themselves is actually valuable?

Maybe others on this site would know more to guide you than I. I know little to nothing about the medical world other than a friend I graduated college with now works for Stryker making fake joints and loves it.
 
My company actually deals almost exclusively with the medical field. Right now I am turning complex parts for pedicle screw drivers. I do the low production runs manually, while the cnc dept does the production of plates, screws, rods, etc.

I realize the modern world is in cnc. Utilizing our cnc dept for tool room use is not an option right now since all of the machines are booked solid.

I think learning how tools cut and how to make them cut better is highly valuable knowledge, and I still have a lot to learn, especially in grinding and actual toolmaking for the cnc dept. I believe after I can use each machine to its fullest potential, I can bring a lot of valuable experience back to cnc, which would make me a more sought after candidate to potential employers.
Does that sound about right?
 
My company actually deals almost exclusively with the medical field. Right now I am turning complex parts for pedicle screw drivers. I do the low production runs manually, while the cnc dept does the production of plates, screws, rods, etc.

I realize the modern world is in cnc. Utilizing our cnc dept for tool room use is not an option right now since all of the machines are booked solid.

I think learning how tools cut and how to make them cut better is highly valuable knowledge, and I still have a lot to learn, especially in grinding and actual toolmaking for the cnc dept. I believe after I can use each machine to its fullest potential, I can bring a lot of valuable experience back to cnc, which would make me a more sought after candidate to potential employers.
Does that sound about right?

every bit of insight you can gain, will benfit you in any facet. knowing how a cutter reacts while engaging a part, feeling it thru the handles, will be very beneficial when you get into cnc machining. but it isnt a direct translation...they are definitly two differant worlds. leanring how to build a tool/fixture/gage for a production part will help your processing skills emensly. kind of a no brainer right? leanr as much as you can, be as versatile as you can be
 
My company actually deals almost exclusively with the medical field. Right now I am turning complex parts for pedicle screw drivers. I do the low production runs manually, while the cnc dept does the production of plates, screws, rods, etc.

I realize the modern world is in cnc. Utilizing our cnc dept for tool room use is not an option right now since all of the machines are booked solid.

I think learning how tools cut and how to make them cut better is highly valuable knowledge, and I still have a lot to learn, especially in grinding and actual toolmaking for the cnc dept. I believe after I can use each machine to its fullest potential, I can bring a lot of valuable experience back to cnc, which would make me a more sought after candidate to potential employers.
Does that sound about right?
If I had it "all to do over again" I would get a bio engineering degree. I think this can produce a lasting goodness for anyone that is disabled.
I agree with others, learning how to machine, and having this domain knowledge will improve the design of any component used for prosthesis.
 
I'm not saying about anyone here, just in general. A lot of the people that are called "Tool & Die Makers" anymore really are not.

IMO, a Tool maker or Mold maker is a a guy that can repair a progressive die, fix a slide on a mold, work from a sketch or part, and all with little or no supervision. I couldn't when I came out of trade school. But now I'm seeing guys that have been in the "trade" for 10 years or more, running a CNC something and call themselves "Tool Makers". BS!

I'm old, and opinionated, but there are very few tool makers out there. It's a very stressful job in a job shop, but you can make a lot of money if you're good. I can't tell you the number of times that I unloaded a die from the truck and there was a sketch of where a hole needed to be added. The slides that I've added to injection molds. The gauges that I've changed because of a print rev. On 99% of that work, a CNC wouldn't have done you any good. On the 1% that was left, most of that would have been a wire EDM.

That's stuff that they don't teach you in trade school. Now, I hear horror stories from friends that are still in the business. Import dies and molds are a big problem to fix. Company X will buy an import die for $20K less than a domestic but wonder why it doesn't last and needs to be rebuilt. I talked to a buddy this weekend and he went through this with a customer. The 3 times that they repaired the die would have paid for a new one. When it broke the 4th time, the customer ordered a new one from them.

Rant over! It's Friday. Next week, it's on to a new job. No more engineering!
JR
 
Maybe I'm jaded by working in large shops, but I've never seen a "tool and die maker".

We had manufacturing engineers, tooling engineers, CNC programmers, setup guys, and operators. There were a few guys that f-ed around on a Bridgeport that didn't know anything about machining, or welding, or design.

In my experience, tooling was designed in 3D by an engineer. Drawings were made and sent out. Some work was done in house. Some were subbed out for design and build. Maybe those sub shops had "tool and die makers". I don't know.

It seems like another passe title like "pattern maker". Pattern maker is a fancy name for a guy who cut gates and runners in a match plate. The real pattern or core box was designed in 3D by an engineer or designer, programmed and run by a programmer.

If you want an abused title, it's "engineer".
 
Thanks guys. My foreman fits the old school description. While we don't do much die work, everything is from scratch and like JR said cnc machines would be little help in most of the processes he is responsible for, like making threading tools and various form tools. We also do a lot of instrument modification as well. I said it in my first post, but I have experience with cnc, moreso on the lathe side of things. I can set up and do most programming on Swiss turn machines STAR.. So if I go back to running those lathes I know I can benefit from the knowledge I am gaining from manual machining.

But I definitely want to learn as much from this guy as possible, he is a master in my young eyes
 
I'm not saying about anyone here, just in general. A lot of the people that are called "Tool & Die Makers" anymore really are not.

IMO, a Tool maker or Mold maker is a a guy that can repair a progressive die, fix a slide on a mold, work from a sketch or part, and all with little or no supervision. I couldn't when I came out of trade school. But now I'm seeing guys that have been in the "trade" for 10 years or more, running a CNC something and call themselves "Tool Makers". BS!

I'm old, and opinionated, but there are very few tool makers out there. It's a very stressful job in a job shop, but you can make a lot of money if you're good. I can't tell you the number of times that I unloaded a die from the truck and there was a sketch of where a hole needed to be added. The slides that I've added to injection molds. The gauges that I've changed because of a print rev. On 99% of that work, a CNC wouldn't have done you any good. On the 1% that was left, most of that would have been a wire EDM.

That's stuff that they don't teach you in trade school. Now, I hear horror stories from friends that are still in the business. Import dies and molds are a big problem to fix. Company X will buy an import die for $20K less than a domestic but wonder why it doesn't last and needs to be rebuilt. I talked to a buddy this weekend and he went through this with a customer. The 3 times that they repaired the die would have paid for a new one. When it broke the 4th time, the customer ordered a new one from them.

Rant over! It's Friday. Next week, it's on to a new job. No more engineering!
JR

maybe there is a lapse in the definition...tool maker...they make fixtures tools and gages
die makers make and maintain dies
mold makers..well they make molds.

reguardless of machine or methods used

at least thats how i read it....
 
I actually am a tool and die maker, my first degree from the TMA in Chicago.
While I am no longer on the machining side of the traded the stuff I learned makes me great in the one I am now.
I often wonder how engineers and designers get hired with no experience building parts.
I learned from guys that were in their early 60’s when I was in my early 20’s, while they were not up to speed on the latest technology,
they could do amazing things with what they had available.
Learning tool and die making my not be as needed as it once was , but for me it did something more valuable than any degree I have, it taught me how to think.
 
We got a lot of guys that make chips! Sometimes they make too many chips. That's why we also have welders.

Ewlsey, Everything is "supposed" to be done in 3D here. We used to get part models that were not drawn to the center of the tolerance. We'd also get models that somebody just changed the dimensions on for the part print. The programmers have been burned so many times, that they check everything. We have a couple of "kids" doing tool and fixture design. One of them has the nickname; "rev C"

You'd also be amazed at the companies around here that contract everything. Example; Salesman Joe came up with an idea for a better widget. He went to Fred's tool & die with a sketch. Fred built him 2 cheap dies to make 10K parts on Fred's 60 ton Bliss. Joe's wife and daughter-in-law assembled the parts in Joe's garage. A year later, all 10K parts have been sold, the dies are worn out, and Joe tells Fred that he needs 20K parts in 2 weeks.
I've seen the above a bunch of times.

We've got a warehouse full of patterns. I know that some go back to the 50's or earlier. No 3D drawings on those, but we still sell the parts.
JR

BTW, you need a casting engineer to determine the size and location of the runners, risers, and gates. Also, he's the one to determine if they use any chillers and where to put them. All known as rigging. If we get a pattern back from a foundry, 99.99% of the time, the rigging will be stripped from the pattern.
 
Ritz,
Since you asked, here is my opinion. A question first. Is this Apprenticeship, to your foreman, "Formal ", meaning are the hours recorded, and sent to your state education program. Or are you HIS apprentice? I tell the young guys and girls that come into my little shop to take the time, and go thru the full apprenticeship. You already have the College part, Math physics, engineering etc. You mentioned you have been in the shop since your were 15ish, Now you are? 22? 24? I suspect your state requirements you may have only 1500 hours left, because of your previous experience. Once you have that, move into the rest of the factory. Go thru the CNC turning department, then milling, then edm, if possible. watch and learn from the "Hot" programmer (s) ask to try programming, start with three axis, and move up. By the time your thirty, ready to settle down and by a house or ??? YOU will be one of, if not the, most valuable employee in the shop. If after all that, you are not treated well ($$$) , move on, you will have no problem finding work. NEVER EVER be afraid to move, however, never make a lateral move, only an upward one, and remember money only satisfies for a short time. BUT Challenge never gets old, ever. The reason I am "high" on the formality? basic skills have been covered, so as an employer, it is reasonable to make some basic assumptions about you. You have the basics, you can commit to something long term, and you should be pretty well rounded. Then, it is up to the new employer to utilize you, to BOTH parties benefit. Technology will always be changing, getting better, getting more accurate, and so on, but, WITHOUT the ability to fall back on your experiences of the past, like the busted tools, the epic work holding failures, the brite red cutting tools that shouldn't be,, the long, extra, hours to get "It" out, the pissing match about the "best" way etc. YOU WOULD STILL BE LIMITED, in my opinion. BUT WITH all the previously mentioned, you are 100% employable when, for whatever the reason the factory is shuttered. you are 100% employable, in whatever part of the country IS busy, you will NEVER want for work in this trade, IF you stay mobile, and are well exposed, EXPOSED , NOT JUST EXPERIANCED. I like the guy, that has had 5 jobs in 20 years, he has had 4 years experience in each environment, rather than 4 years experience that was then repeated 5 times. whatever YOU DECIDE, do it well, I mean, stay current, read trade mags, go to the shows, not just machining type shows, but, car, boat, medical, semi, oil& gas. You will always have a finger on the pulse of emerging opportunity. Personally, I wish you well, and a long and satisfying career.
Regards,
Chris
 
Maybe I'm jaded by working in large shops, but I've never seen a "tool and die maker".

We had manufacturing engineers, tooling engineers, CNC programmers, setup guys, and operators. There were a few guys that f-ed around on a Bridgeport that didn't know anything about machining, or welding, or design.

In my experience, tooling was designed in 3D by an engineer. Drawings were made and sent out. Some work was done in house. Some were subbed out for design and build. Maybe those sub shops had "tool and die makers". I don't know.

It seems like another passe title like "pattern maker". Pattern maker is a fancy name for a guy who cut gates and runners in a match plate. The real pattern or core box was designed in 3D by an engineer or designer, programmed and run by a programmer.

If you want an abused title, it's "engineer".

I am a tool and die maker.

I earned my Jouneyman's card in 1998, in Toledo, Ohio.

I design, build, troubleshoot and run progressive stamping dies. I make the fixtures required to check the parts. I build the fixtures required to complete assembly of our products. I make new and replacement parts for our secondary assembly machines. I use Autocad, and a pencil and paper, depending on the project at hand.

I started in the trade working with my father, a pattern maker. He built both wood and metal patterns. I have a working knowledge of patterns and probably could muddle my way thru making a corebox.

I actually exist, and I assure you there are many more of us out there than you think.
 
BTW, you need a casting engineer to determine the size and location of the runners, risers, and gates. Also, he's the one to determine if they use any chillers and where to put them. All known as rigging. If we get a pattern back from a foundry, 99.99% of the time, the rigging will be stripped from the pattern.

I worked in a foundry, but only in the machine shop, so I'm not an expert in castings.

My understand is that gates and runners is mostly black magic and no two foundries would do it the same. The pattern shops never put on the gates, they let the foundry do it. Then when they have porosity or something, they may have to change them or add more.

When we did permanent mold, the molds were designed in house by an engineer. He would set the gates, but often they would be re-cut after a trail. Sometimes they had to be welded up and moved entirely.

I've done a lot of fixture design and building. I have also repaired many fixtures, some much older than me. It is amazing to see the work on some of the older ones. They didn't have places like Carr Lane to go buy hard rest buttons for a few cents. They made EVERYTHING. They also did things like hard welding and in place grinding that make the tools much harder to repair.

In my experience, the tooling has had to become much more complex to follow the parts which are inevitably becoming more complicated. I do things like machining fixtures for sand cast tubes. In the old days, a few V block and you were ready to go. I've done some where there were no flat, round, or straight parts of the casting that were not machined. The only way to hold them is with 3D contoured block. I would be lost without a CAD model.
 
Man, this is an awesome thread already. Thanks for the excellent replies guys.

As far as the apprenticeship goes, it is not official. I know nothing about how to get the toolmakers papers, and frankly, my mentor tells me he is not even a journeyman officially. But I often think he's pulling my leg. I realize making it official would be a good idea. I'm just not sure how, and not sure if my shop is 'qualified' to have an apprenticeship. Like I said, I am clueless to that process.
 
Man, this is an awesome thread already. Thanks for the excellent replies guys.

As far as the apprenticeship goes, it is not official. I know nothing about how to get the toolmakers papers, and frankly, my mentor tells me he is not even a journeyman officially. But I often think he's pulling my leg. I realize making it official would be a good idea. I'm just not sure how, and not sure if my shop is 'qualified' to have an apprenticeship. Like I said, I am clueless to that process.

its a lot of administrative work to get involved with a state approved apprenticeship program. i recieved my state papers 5 years ago...we havent had an apprentice since. too bad...
 
Man, this is an awesome thread already. Thanks for the excellent replies guys.

As far as the apprenticeship goes, it is not official. I know nothing about how to get the toolmakers papers, and frankly, my mentor tells me he is not even a journeyman officially. But I often think he's pulling my leg. I realize making it official would be a good idea. I'm just not sure how, and not sure if my shop is 'qualified' to have an apprenticeship. Like I said, I am clueless to that process.

Requirements for a Toll and Die Journeyman's card are:

8000 hours of On the job training by a qualified mentor(s)
576 hours of classroom studies.

If you can document these two things, you can petition the Department of Labor of the U.S. for a journeyman's card.

Contact them for the particulars.
 








 
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