Carriage very difficult to move on my Whacheon Mori clone lathe

I posted this on the machine-specific subforum but it hasn't had any replies, so I'm posting here for the extra eyeballs.

Went out to the shop yesterday to do a small a job for a customer for delivery today. Hadn't used the lathe in several days. When I was setting up for the job (bunch of 12mm bored holes) I started the lathe up just to warm the spindle a bit. The last op I'd done on it was power-tapping a bunch of M6 holes in 4140; for that reason, the carriage was all the way over against the micrometer stop, which was hard against the headstock.

As far as I can tell, when I started it, the carriage feed lever was UP for some reason. Maybe I bumped it?! A mystery. It's possible it was up for some time while I was power-threading and I hadn't noticed it. Like I bumped it while leaning over the carriage swapping parts in for tapping. Ugh.

Now, the carriage is virtually immovable using the hand wheel. The machine power feed can still move it without apparant strain, but, as a data point, it's noticeably harder to engage and disengage the carriage feed lever. From that, I infer that the problem is in the carriage, not in the headstock.

I'm hoping that a machine so obviously well-engineered has a mechanical "fuse" to prevent any real damage from dumbshits like me in this circumstance. A shear pin or the like. Otherwise I guess I'm looking for bent parts or messed up rack and pinion stuff on the handwheel.

Before I start taking things apart, if anyone has any info on this I would greatly appreciate it! October is my down month (deer and elk hunts) so I'm under the gun to get a bunch of work done now, and most of it goes through this machine.

Really thankful for any help guys. Feeling like an idiot here.

I guess I would start by...

...trying carefully hand turning the main motor drive pully/s backwards with the feed knob engaged. This may help to loosen it and as I said 'carefully' you might watch the DRO's (or add a one inch dial gauge to the end of the compound casting)to see if it is moving or flexing in the z plus direction at all.

Their service department might be able to help too.

WHACHEON U.S.A., Inc.
Toll Free : 800.524.9227 /
Local: 562.494.3664
Fax: 562.494.4105

Most decent lathe saddle feed mechanisms are protected against miss use ( accidental or deliberate ) by either a shear pin or a simple slipping clutch.

Normally the device is positioned at the point were the feed shaft enters the feed change box.

Some lathes also have an overload trip in the apron itself.

Have you inadvertently caused the saddle gibs to bind. Is the feel of the handwheel tight all the way or is it tight- slack- tight- slack as you wind.

Regards Tyrone.

Tyrone, it's just, EXCEPT up right where the carriage was when it was against the headstock. It's looser there, but just for a few inches of travel.

Long Tom said:

Tyrone, it's just, EXCEPT up right where the carriage was when it was against the headstock. It's looser there, but just for a few inches of travel.

Click to expand...

Sounds like the carriage lock gib is hanging up. Loosen the nut and and tap it gently to make sure the bolt goes down. Ways are always worn more at headstock.

Peek in sideways of the carriage from tailstock end to take a look at the clamp to make sure it is not hung up when you loosen the top clamp nut.

Hi Lomg Tom, if it was my lathe I'd release any gibs and the keeper strips slightly and try to wind again. See if that improves any things, if it doesn't you know it's a mechanism fault and not a problem with the ways.

Regards Tyrone.

Hey guys. The dude at Whacheon USA called it out without hesitation as a bent pinion shaft. Says it's very common with these machines- it's what happens if you do what I did. $500 part.

He said, drop the apron and it'll be obvious. I'm in the process of dropping the apron now. No small thing, that. Currently not clear if I need to remove the keyed thin shaft that the fwd/rev levers turn to actuate the electrical switches, and, how the hell do I get the half-nuts and retainers free of the leadscrew shaft. It's buried in there.

Ugh. Thinking this is a mistake you make....... once.

Hi Tom, the usual method is to take out all the leadscrew, feed shafts, actuator rods before you drop the apron off the saddle. It may sound long winded but it's the quickest, safest way in the long run. Don't panic, what you're doing is an everyday job. Be sure to mark everything up.

If you keep the half nuts in the " open " position you won't have a problem with the leadscrew.

When you remove the feed shaft be sure to turn the key way to the bottom so any loose keys don't fall out. Don't ask me how I know that but it took me two days to put it right.

The reason I asked if the handwheel wound tight-slack- tight-slack was because I already suspected a bent pinion shaft. Why I asked is because a bent pinion gear will go hard in mesh and then loose in mesh with the rack. Your reply wasn't too clear on that score.

Good luck and best wishes, Tyrone.

Thanks Tyrone. Knowing I need to remove the shafts helps a lot.

It's not tight-loose-tight. Just very tight, except for one spot, which is right up where the carriage would've been when it did the slo-mo crash. From that I am afraid that I infer there might be some rack damage as well, though I can't see any. The only good news there (perhaps) is that it's a gap-bed machine, so the last section of rack is removable.

I started taking the apron apart yesterday, realized I was going to need to pull at least the electrical-start shaft, fell into the pit of despair <g>, and switched my efforts to another frustrating task, putting siding on the gable end of the house I'm building, way up high, with several vents to deal with. Seemed downright calming in comparison.

The only silver lining is that my main urgent customer has had it drilled into him that I'm leaving for 10 days in early October so he needed to get me work he needed well before that. I've got him more or less caught up. Don't have anyone clamoring for their parts so at least I've got a little breathing room here. It's still a disaster and I'm disgusted with myself and frankly a little intimidated by pulling the machine apart to the extent it seems it's gonna need. I'll figure it out, I always do, but...... Ugh.

Any further tips along the lines of "you need to pull all the shafts" greatly appreciated!

Hi Tom, The sooner you stop kicking yourself over the mistake the better. " The Moving Finger Writes " and all that. Concentrate on the repair now or you'll be making another mistake. I've done foolish things in the past has have 99% of the guys on this board.

There are two ways to begin this sort of repair. You can block up the apron from inside the chip tray and leave the shafts in place, Just remove the saddle vertically. That's ok for just having a look see inside the apron but not great if some shafts have to be removed.

The second way and the way I would proceed is to withdraw the shafts and drop the apron down and get it on the workbench where you can work all around it.
You will need to remove any DRO scales first if your lathe has them.

Next you need to detach the shafts and screws from the feed box end. Normally these are pinned in place, some pins are parallel and some are tapered. Be SURE you're driving on the right end. Good pins are drilled and tapped for a slide hammer.

When all the shafts are free you'll need to remove the hanger block at the tailstock end of the bed. This also will be pinned in situ, remove the pins before you loosen the fixing screws. Again a slide hammer is great here.

With the hanger block out of the way you can remove the leadscrew and shafts towards the tailstock end. If the
screw is pretty tight to move engage the half nuts and jog the long travel handwheel so the screw is pulled out of it's housing. Don't overdo the force. Be careful with leadscrews, they're not as strong as they look and can be bent quite easily. You can do the same thing to the shafts. In the past I've used a carrier or even a jubilee clip. Remember what I said about turning the keyway in the feed shaft to the bottom. Some lathes feed shafts have two keyways, turn those so they are horizontal.
With the shafts all out of the way remove the gibs and keeper strips that hold the saddle down to the bed..

Next step is to pull the dowels that align the apron to the saddle. Slide hammer again normally.

After the pins are all out take two of the screws that hold the saddle to the apron out. Do this across corners. replace these screws with long lengths of screwed rod and put nuts on the screwed rod so they're tight.

Then remove the remaining fixing screws. Lower the saddle down slightly with the nuts on the screwed rod and
with a flashlight look inside. Some machines have oil lines going from the apron to the saddle. You will have to remove them.

When all this done you should be able to then remove the apron and work on it properly.

If you work calmly and logically it's a simple job that anyone with a modicum of ability should be able to achieve.

Regards Tyrone.

Tom, did you do the check on the gibs that was mentioned above? I ask because 1) you are apparently not getting the loose/tight/loose/tight pattern that would be expected for the bent pinion, and 2) too many times I have gone to great effort to disassemble something ... only to find that I overlooked something that would not have required any disassembly at all.

Best (or worst) story in that regard was when I tried to fix a kitchen hand mixer that stopped running. Went to great lengths. Finally decided it was beyond repair, and threw it away.

And then discovered that the GFCI breaker was tripped.

That was a lovely, lovely day ... !

awake said:

Tom, did you do the check on the gibs that was mentioned above? I ask because 1) you are apparently not getting the loose/tight/loose/tight pattern that would be expected for the bent pinion, and 2) too many times I have gone to great effort to disassemble something ... only to find that I overlooked something that would not have required any disassembly at all.

Best (or worst) story in that regard was when I tried to fix a kitchen hand mixer that stopped running. Went to great lengths. Finally decided it was beyond repair, and threw it away.

And then discovered that the GFCI breaker was tripped.

That was a lovely, lovely day ... !

Click to expand...

Good point. I've done that too. I'm kinda in denial about this- working on the house today while my back-brain chews on this problem, and as Tyrone says, the angst subsides. "Fear is the mind-killer" and angst isn't far behind.

I would agree that a bent shaft would manifest as a loose/tight pattern.

Hmm.

Hi guys, the " unknown " is the mind killer. When you've never done jobs like this before it can be daunting. It's the fear of the unknown. I always said to myself " A human being put this together so a human being can take it apart ". Once you've got it apart you'll wonder what all the fuss was about.

Tom's correct to wait while his head is in the right place though.

Regards Tyrone.

Tom,

Earlier this year the apron on our warner and swasey went down. Started acting erratic stopping in face cuts, started trying to take off when the feed levers were not engaged. The boss put me on the spot to tear apart the apron and find the problem.

It is a bit daunting to begin with but after you get started and have the apron torn off and know how it all went together it is fairly easy/quick to reassemble. if you mess something up like not getting a clutch tight enough you will find the second teardown, the machine practically falls apart in your hands. Goes back together 5x faster than the first time as well.

One thing that helps me when tearing into any machine or mechanism is I keep a complete table set aside for all the parts that have to be removed. I lay them down in the order as to which they came off, I also take lots of pictures and videos if I feel it is necessary.

I would wish you luck but I don't have much of that and still got up and running in a day and a half.

Regards,
Alonzo

If I would of seen this earlier I could of told you what you now know,lol

Been there,Done that

I bent the pinion shaft on my 14x40 birmingham twice, just took it out, straightened it, welded a few broken teeth on the rack... back to work.

I have seen a surprising number of Mori and Whacheon lathes with destroyed Aprons and headstocks.

Garwood said:

I have seen a surprising number of Mori and Whacheon lathes with destroyed Aprons and headstocks.

Click to expand...

I must say, it surprises me there's not some kind of fail-safe to protect the mechanism against this. I didn't "crash" it hard; the VFD was set to 10 HZ (for power tapping) and it was on its slowest feed; the problem was, I had the carriage pretty much all the way over because I was using collets and working close to the spindle nose. So it was a very slo-mo crash as the carriage fed just 1/4" or so.

I'm headed out there today to re-assess things before continuing to take shit apart. I have stuff stripped off the apron at this point- threading dial, Trav-A-Dial, handwheel, etc- but haven't really dug deep yet. I'm going to try harder to eliminate other problems before I ass-u-me it's the pinion shaft and start pulling the leadscrew etc.

I'll definitely update this thread. I'm counting on youse guyz for more help!

Thanks much guys.

Hi Tom, having the machine on the slowest feed means it's probably the most powerful feed.

Regards Tyrone.

Tyrone Shoelaces said:

Hi Tom, having the machine on the slowest feed means it's probably the most powerful feed.

Regards Tyrone.

Click to expand...

Yes. The really slow feed speed @ 10Hz is just my excuse for not noticing it was feeding.

Ok, I finally located and loosened the carraige gib. Not where I thought I would be... the carraige movement is still quite stiff but it's noticeably looser. Just tried to call Greer. Headed back out there now.