The Demise of High School Machining (Bit of a Rant)

The Demise of High School Machining?
(sorry it's a bit of a rant)
A recent post by electromech31 in the for sale / wanted forum about High School Machining has got me thinking about the sad state of practical education. I am a Technology Education teacher, “shop” for the older folks. The high school that I attended as a student had a basic woods program but had discontinued the metals portion years before. The only metals education revolved around a buzz box and an old horizontal band saw. Our instruction was limited to “make sure the exhaust is turned on if you are welding.” Coming from a farming background I had some basic “farmer” welding skills. While attending college I took two “materials and processes” classes. We had a class period or two to perfect each of our welding processes. In the machine shop portion we made a simple marking gauge. We spent one day molding sand and another pouring aluminum wall hangings or something equally useful. All told I would guess there was between 6 and 12 hours of actual hands on metal working during my entire 4 years as a college student. Admittedly I did spend some more time in the labs working on “Government jobs” although they were generally discouraged. I managed to graduate college with a fairly decent GPA still unable to read a veneer caliper, dial caliper or micrometer. I had seen CNC equipment but had no idea how to operate. One problem is in the breadth of “technology education” which might include; board drafting, AutoCAD, 3D Design, manual machining, CNC machining, woodworking, cabinetry, construction, electricity, electronics, photography, printing, pagination, Photoshop, welding, Auto mechanics, transportation, small engines, engineering, and still more that I can’t think of. Basically college prepared me for little more than a dusting of each field.

A semester of student teaching helped me learn about student management, which can be a lot to handle at times. I was able to gain some more content area knowledge in these few months. Upon completing my undergrad I still didn’t feel very qualified to teach so I blindly decided to get a masters degree in the field of education. There went another year of my life and more money. Never finished, had a 3.8 GPA just couldn’t see the point it wasn’t going to make me a better teacher. I finally realized knowing your content area makes you a better teacher.

I am now in my 6th year of teaching and admittedly every day I come to work feeling unprepared. It scares me how unprepared our teachers can be. If I hadn’t grown up around farming, operated a construction business, and worked full and part time for a power company I would be totally lost. These experiences are how I learned to troubleshoot, weld, build, work with electricity and etc. What about those that spend their summers delivering pizzas or working at the mini mart?

Not only are our teachers insufficiently trained, they are often not given the “tools” they need to succeed. The wanted post by Electromech31 is a good example of this. Our ability to compete with other countries is only going to decrease. Not only are we able to teach less of these hands on skills but kids are getting less experience out of school. Fewer and fewer parents spend time doing mechanical things with their kids. In the past year I have had two high school students that had never used a ratchet before and had a hard time understanding the basic operation of it.

At our school I don’t teach metals but the ag teacher does. Even in our small school his metals class has 18 students in a space about the size of a three car garage. Main equipment includes 5 stick welders, 2 mig welders, 2 small south bend lathes, a J head Bridgeport and some sheet metal equipment. Trying to run a class with that number of students with that space and equipment is quite challenging. Being I’m new to the school this year I helped him get the Bridgeport set up as it had been mothballed for the last 5 years, due to lack of knowledge.

This is my first year here so I am still trying to figure out all the ropes but I plan to build some better business connections in hopes of getting some support from them in the future. We do have some mid size manufacturing businesses in the area, but we all know about the economy. In the meantime I just try to help the kids when I can in the metals class and work on building my skills and knowledge. I apologize this kind of turned in to a rant and perhaps a bit negative. I know that there are high schools that have great programs and then there are others with none at all, so I guess it could be worse. The implications to society over time scare me.

I teach at the community college. My suspicion is things will get worse. The kids coming up have NO hands on mechanical experience. For anecdotal (sp?) proof go to the toy stores and see what they are selling. The older students I have are the normal mixed bag. But I have to put a great deal of effort into the younger ones to impart a basic mechanical knowledge set.

There's a chronic shortage of tradesmen in Australia, yet it's effectively shut down in high school and at the tech college level, I went to a large college two weeks ago to find the metalwork division was closed down and handed over to hairdressing and childcare training. In Australia if you want to immigrate, learn some hairdressing or how to be a butcher as scientists are not on the list.

So it's not just a local problem you're encountering but one that seems to be in other countries as fears of liability and as institutions become increasingly managed at upper levels by well meaning fools. The tech college in my regional city has little money for materials and consumables yet has a massive, well funded arts and pottery department.

It's an article of faith with these people that if an instructor has a certificate 4 in workplace instruction thay can teach anything at all with no prior experience: this has led to mass student walkouts in classes such as shotfiring and firearms safety courses. I've personally seen a marine engineers textbook that labels a fuel injector diagram as a boat winch!!.

All useful trade publications and textbooks such as machinery's handbook and similar books on plumbing and electricity were dumped by the female librarians as they "Had to keep the books turning over" and "Anyway hardly anyone borrowed them".

To continue on from SAG180's post, here students have a choice of doing an apprenticeship while still at school... I not 100% sure how it works but starting in yr11 you do so many days a week at school and so many days a week at your place of work..

At the end of the first two years you finish up with a yr 12 school certificate and also you are recognised as having done one year of your apprenticeship..

This has only come about in recent years, when I finished school back in the nineties society looked down upon trade jobs, if you did one of them you were considered a failure and as such there were virtually no apprenticeships available..

Nowadays due to shortages the likes of an electrician can charge $100 an hour to do basic home work (it is illegal for unlicenced people to do any electrical work here), and all he needs is a work ute and a few tools...

I know what you mean. My daughter goes to Toledo Technology Academy rated one of the top high schools in the Midwest. An they where just trying to close it. Because of budget problems. Findly after them failing 1-8 grade to teach her something we find some thing great and half way thought high school they want to close. You should have seen the FUR fly.
David/toledo

I graduated in 94 and my HS had a pretty nice shop and very knowledgeable teachers. We had the tools to make stuff like a gokart, fiberglass kayak and whatever you wanted to make out of wood. We also had a foundry where we could cast aluminum. If you were motivated, you could build whatever you wanted within reason. No joke, we even got to make knives.

For a guy like me that sucks at academics, having that shop was huge. I feel so bad for kids now days that don't have the opportunity I did.

There was a recent comment here from a politician(fat tory one) asking "why cant an engineering co get skilled workers?"

Perhaps for one simple reason

Anyone with a smidge of intelligence has been told "goto university"
After all with 2 years of "A levels" and a further 3 years doing a degree leads you on to starting your working like with 20K of debt but chances are , you'll end up earning more than the national average wage (30K? cant remember that bit), compared to being a CNC guy like wot i is , the 5-7 yrs of training and experience it takes to be a sort of 1/2 reasonable programmer/setter looks a bit sick when you realise just how little the job pays for the amount of training/study that goes in.

Still I always live for the day when the boss bitches about how much he pays me, with which I rip into him with "Without the setters , your £2 million of machine tools is so much scrap metal, and I just love handling a box of 50 £1000 parts knowing you only paid me £200 to make them"
Then taking one out and beating it with a hammer *

Boris

*I'm careful to take out the scrap part I stuck in the box when I saw the boss coming **

**at least I hope I did

Boris said:

n

Anyone with a smidge of intelligence has been told "goto university"

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But didn't those people go to uni anyway??

When they started pushing the less intelligent to go to uni, they had to lower the standard of the course so the influx of new people would not all fail and cause irreparable harm to the universities reputation...

That and create a whole new line of courses to cater for these people...

I do not think people are smarter now then they were eons ago, and people from a third world are no less intelligent then the population from a first world..

We can not all be doctors and engineers, someone still has to clean the toilets...

I graduated from high school in 1972. We had a huge and well equipped auto shop, a machine shop with every tool known to man, a serious electronics lab with a ham radio room hanging off the side, plus the usual physics, chemistry and biology labs. No shortage of things in the art department, music department and theater as well. We had a great darkroom and photo club. We even had a big programmable calculating unit. It was the end of a golden era as seniors could design pretty much their own courses as long as they met whatever credit requirements they needed. Heck, the rifle team even brought their rifles to school. AFAIK, everything went downhill after 1972, but I really feel sorry for kids today, with the elimination of the hands-on stuff and all the budget problems, not to mention political correctness and zero-tolerance.

What a sad rant, like a lot of teachers you don't really seem that into it. But since you seem to want to follow through in a subject you don't have industry experience in...

Hey, learn a bit of grant writing, get on the horn to industry types, who might be able to do something, they love to donate tools as long as you put their banner up. Most of these stellar machine trade programs, be it high school or vocational 2 year schools--they have somebody research, write, and execute a grant that gets results to buy relevant machines. That could be you--I mean, you're writing on this forum, so you can type at least...

It kills me that you say you're unprepared most days and then you lament about how the kids are underserved. Huh? You need to intern in a real shop or work in a real shop so you have a point of reference. Make a recommendation for an adjunct who has years of real world experience, then write the grant that get them hired. There are ways of accomplishing what you want. And look closely at current trends, such as robotics. Bring in guest speakers with examples of CNC work. Kids these days are not easily impressed, perhaps a tour of a community college.

A lot people depend on you, more than you know. If teaching isn't doing it for you, move on.

First off why do they have to have decreed instructors for "shop" programs.
You admit in the op that you are clueless .How long do you think it takes for a kid to figure that out.They need tradespeople teaching shop programs.And they need several years experience in the trade they are teaching.I service the machines in our local high school shop.The kids are making the same crap there dads dads made.I say the system is broken ,fix it or dump it.How many administrators have ever talked to a real journeyman for input into the shop programs?And lets face it kids in general would rather play video games than make a screw driver.I had a great friend who was a shop teacher.He said there where 3 reasons he went in to teaching shop ,june ,july,august.Sorry no sympathy from me.

They don't need "decreed instructors" for shop programs, a lot of shop instructors do have industry backgrounds. If they need an automotive instructor they will hire a mechanic and in some northern districts that may be all the training they start with. In districts by larger towns they have journeymen with their degree's completed or near completion. Until you get your degree your pay is less, enough that you want to finish your degree...usually summer school classes year after year. Some journeymen end up in teaching after getting injured in their trade.

The training in BC is good but you usually end up teaching in multiple shop areas outside of your industry background. Proportionally there aren't many schools large enough to support you teaching only metalwork etc. In BC and I'm assuming other parts of North America there is a set curriculm established by the education ministry (not that you can't deviate a little).

Simple projects while boring to us are a place to start for beginners and using the forge, casting area and machinery is exciting to new students. Yes, if it is the same project year after year there is a problem.

There are several big issues with shops now. The largest seems to be underfunding, it costs a huge amount to supply and maintain a shop. Buying import machinery is usually a mistake, it doesn't last. About 30 years ago they started to phase out metal shops in particular, woodwork was "cleaner" and students still drove cars so automotive was still popular. A few years back the issue was liability, computer classes were safer and a lot of woodwork, plastic, metalwork and automotive shops were closed never to re-open.

And then there are other traditional electives that compete for students such as band, art, PE home ec plus relatively new ones like computers etc. which equals fewer students and they won't run a shop class below a certain number of students. If a principal wishes to support one program over another all they do is timetable a course necessary for graduation at the same time as a shop course, a lot of students don't sign up because they can't and your shop course dies.

Hopefully things will turn around,

Dave

I taught for 30 years and found local industries very helpful in supplying materials. I had the run of their scrap piles and drop racks. Alcoa used to donate the solid part of the tubing run so every year I would get a pickup truck of 2-3" dia. 6061, two foot long delivered by someone unknown. NUCOR steel donates metal strips 1"x6"x.125 to our welding area for the kids to practice on. Local heating and air shops provide scrap sheet metal for small projects. The local tire shops donate wheel weights for lead hammers and vice jaw protector projects. I learned two, well more than that, things teaching. One, a good Industrial Arts teacher has to be a good scrounge, and two, if you don't have something for your students to do, they will find something to do.

Slightly OT

In a recent show "After Armageddon", the narrator stated, "A time will come where someone who know how to grow vegetables, will be more valuable than someone who trades stocks." Maybe that time will arrive sooner rather than later for manufacturing.
If your local school board is dropping shop classes in favor of safer, "modern alternatives", vote with your bank account. Attend your school board meetings, vote down budget appropriations for fluff courses.

After obtaining my degree in vocational education and a dismal, foreshortened stint as a student teacher, I came to the conclusion that using shop classes as a way to prepare students for actual jobs is a bad idea. Many experiences over the many intervening years have only strengthened that notion.

If you are going to have a discussion of this sort, the first thing that has to be agreed upon is the purpose of K 12 education. My position is and has always been that the brain is like a muscle, and it needs to be strengthened, developed and made supple with a general workout so that it will be able to deal successfully with the various issues that arise from day to day. That's why I always said that schools ought to teach a basic liberal arts education that gets the muscle into shape and leave the specifics to industry, trade schools, or colleges and universities.

Upon graduating from high school, a person should be able to read and write well enough to express themselves intelligently and effectively, to understand and be able to use basic logic and mathematics, to have a basic knowledge of history and government, to understand and with any luck develop an interest in and appreciation for art and music, to develop a healthy sense of skepticism and critical thinking, and also a basic secular value system.The idea is, if you develop a comprehensive set of intellectual tools, it will be easier to successfully deal with the variety of challenges that arise in day to day life.

If these objectives have not been met by an overwhelming majority of students, the system is broken and needs to be fixed. But even if the above mentioned are all met, a proper education should meet several other requirements. School should teach people to interact properly and successfully with others (unfortunately, in today's schools,many teachers and administrators are only beginning to learn this themselves), teach how to maintain oneself in a safe and healthy manner, and, finally, graduating seniors should have at least some idea of what they plan to do with their lives. Since many kids don't really know what having a job means, or what sort of jobs are available, a broad and general introduction should be given as to what is out there to choose from, and describe the personal attributes required to be successful in a particular field. *

This is where the shop class comes in. No high school shop class is going to give a true feel for what a job is really like, or provide detailed job training. It's foolish to try. As I said before, specific, in-depth training is the responsibility of industry, trade schools and institutions of higher learning. Rather, think of these classes as a smorgasbord sample of careers to choose from. Provide a good enough sample that the students get a feel for what a job involves, and no more. If a student is really excited by one particular career, extracurricular options should be available for further study and involvement.

In a real world, not every school is going to have the facilities described by some of the previous writers, or even enough to teach the basics about a wide range of career options. It's up to the teachers and administrators to find innovative ways to partner with industry to give kids a feel for what each industry is like, and what is expected from an employee.

In my experience, coming from both sides of the issue, if a teacher and school are committed to providing a great educational program, industry will recognize that commitment and will respond generously, whether or not the teacher has extensive hands on experience with the discipline in question. (So long as the teacher recognizes that lack of experience and doesn't anoint himself /herself an expert.)

So, to the original writer who started this topic, don't feel bad about your lack of experience - do something about it! And, in the meantime, work diligently and enthusiastically to provide your students the best education you can.

Steve

* This shouldn't be a class or series of classes in high school, rather career awareness should be integrated into other subjects from an early age. I recall being befuddled in grade school by some of the seemingly arcane topics being hammered into our heads. "Why am I being taught this?" was a common thought. Of course, with the benefit of a half century of hindsight,the value of those lessons has become clear, and in fact I wish I had paid more attention to, and devoted more creativity to, doing the work back then and less to figuring out how to weasel out of things! Had we been given any sort of idea why it is important to know the sine of an angle or the square root of a number, or even why it's good and useful to be able to tell a verb from a noun, this reluctant student, for one, might have been more receptive.

My father was an industrial arts/technology teacher for 26 years teaching auto, metal, and wood shop classes along with BOCES Votech welding nights. He got an associates in diesel technology then worked in industry as a metallurgist for over 10 years before getting his bachelors and teaching. Because he started teaching in 1972, he was grandfathered in and didnt need his masters. New York now requires a teacher to have their masters regardless of what they teach. I could be wrong but I believe in most states you need a masters to teach.

Im now finishing up my bachelors in ME after 7 years in the military and can tell you the biggest problem today is with the students themselves. My high school had only a small wood shop, so I tagged along with my dad whenever I could. I made friends in every local shop and learned by observing the professionals and buying books how to build things. Friends always ask how where I learned something and I tell them "by getting off my ass and doing." Most of the ME majors in my small college honestly should not be here. They think they will learn completely on the job and learn the theory only for the test then erase it from memory. Its ridiculous. Most never pick their teacher's brain outside of class or visit their office. Ive found college is like the rest of my education, you get what you put into it.

Keep in mind with high schools you have short classes and relatively low budgets compared to higher education.

If you are going to have a discussion of this sort, the first thing that has to be agreed upon is the purpose of K 12 education. My position is and has always been that the brain is like a muscle, and it needs to be strengthened, developed and made supple with a general workout so that it will be able to deal successfully with the various issues that arise from day to day. That's why I always said that schools ought to teach a basic liberal arts education that gets the muscle into shape and leave the specifics to industry, trade schools, or colleges and universities.

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I have to tell you that I strongly disagree with that comment. Recalling my experiences in high school wood shop, I saw a lot of students who were "learning disabled" they went to the special classes, cost a lot more to educate than other students. All of a sudden you stick them in a shop class and they come alive and create beautiful projects. They are excited and having fun.

What I realized was that these students weren't learning disabled, rather many of them had talents that simply lied in something different than what the educators were teaching. At that point they probably should have realized it was time to jump off the college bandwagon and find a career that played to their talents. Sad thing is that most of them did go to college to study psychology or some other sort of waste of money not going to get a job with watered down liberal art.

When you realize how much extra money it costs for the school systems to teach many of these "learning disabled" students something they really aren't that well cut out for the money you save by cutting back in most of this stuff, could easily pay for hands on classes in areas that they are talented in. All the while doing both them and society a big favor.

It really is backward today when somehow the 30yr old with 2masters in classic literature, english, PhD in history, $500K in debt living on his mom's couch with no job feels that he is of a higher social class, and would never stoop to the level of that 18-20yr old kid apprenticing at a real trade who is actually getting paid to get his education. The other major issue with that 30yr old above is his only chance of getting a job is to become a teacher or fight for a very few competitive spots as a university professor, where he can convince 1000's of other young students of his to do the same thing he has!

This country is rapidly finding itself with a very educated poor class who thinks they are worth tons of money but have very little knowledge that some one would actually pay for. Sadly most of them when they finally do get a job wind up in education where they tear apart shop classes, look down upon skilled craftsmanship, and only serve to continue the cycle.


Adam

Ill add my two cents.
The schools do not back the shop classes. It eats up to much resources from the rest of the school.

Also as a Tech Collage instructor, on the projects subject. They do not want use to have our students make anything of use. Its all tapped hole here, bored hole there, turn a shaft. Nothing that can be said is something usefull. Tap wrench, vise, vise stop. They are to scared of the insurance risk. Liability risk runs the shop it makes me sick. Isnt making something usefull is why we teach this trade. I must have a screw loss. What was I thinking.

Dusty 67, " One, a good Industrial Arts teacher has to be a good scrounge, and two, if you don't have something for your students to do, they will find something to do." You nailed it! Dave

Thanks

When I started this post my point was not clear. Rightly so some misunderstood that I was frustrated with my job. Maybe a bit with the system, but not with the job. I tried to leave teaching once and it became real clear how much effect I had on students, kids that didn’t have a lot else going for them. Those of you that are in or have been in education know that for some students the only stable thing they have is school and in the case of “shop” this might be the only island of success for them. (As was mentioned in the post about “special needs” students.) I recently had a former student tell me that he is the best TIG welder in his Automotive Collision program and thank me for teaching him TIG. Although I think his drive to succeed had a lot more to do with his success than me, it still makes one feel good.

All will not agree but it is my opinion that highschool is to introduce students to careers, not train them for a career. Even those students who will never get past sweeping the floor will still need on the job training. I often tell kids if this class is something that you hate, well it’s one career you don’t have to try.


I want to thank everyone for their insight on this issue and also for all that you do for your local schools. As I review my original post it become evident to me that my main intention was to inform those of you not too familiar with today’s schools what is going on. Perhaps when that local instructor reaches out to you with questions quite possibly something that’s way out there, you will have a bit more empathy. Just because someone is teaching “Intro to Machining” it doesn’t mean they have all the training they should but most likely they are trying their damdest. As pointed out earlier the school system might not notice but the students will chew them up that clueless instructor. Those bar stock drops are much more valuable to a school than most could imagine. That bit of advice or shop tour is greatly appreciated. Personally I appreciate the ability to lurk on this forum, I have learned so much. (although this site has also motivated me to collect old machine tools, best described in tons)

Thank You