Collet Chuck for smaller lathe?

I have a Rexvalter VF-118 lathe, it's my first lathe, never really used it yet, I'm used to woodworking lathes but I am wanting to take the step into metal machining too, as it seems to come up a lot when I build, modify and renovate old machines.

The lathe comes with a 5" 3-jaw and 6" 4-jaw chuck and four QCTP holders of the swedish make Bergström. Kinda like Aloris.

I've been thinking about collet chucks, as in sometime in the future, in a few years maybe it would be a good investment. They seem like useful things to have. Been watching This Old Tony on youtube, and he has a lot of use from his 5C collet chuck.

I started researching collet chucks and it seems the 5C chuck is not recommended for a lathe of my size which has only a 20mm spindle bore (outer diameter 45/35mm). Then I started looking at ER-32 collet chucks, but it seems these aren't entirely recommended either, lots of people thought it was a bad idea so now I am unsure what's a good way to go for me and my lathe.

Some images of the lathe:

DennisCA said:

I have a Rexvalter VF-118 lathe, it's my first lathe, never really used it yet, I'm used to woodworking lathes but I am wanting to take the step into metal machining too, as it seems to come up a lot when I build, modify and renovate old machines.

The lathe comes with a 5" 3-jaw and 6" 4-jaw chuck and four QCTP holders of the swedish make Bergström. Kinda like Aloris.

I've been thinking about collet chucks, as in sometime in the future, in a few years maybe it would be a good investment. They seem like useful things to have. Been watching This Old Tony on youtube, and he has a lot of use from his 5C collet chuck.

I started researching collet chucks and it seems the 5C chuck is not recommended for a lathe of my size which has only a 20mm spindle bore (outer diameter 45/35mm). Then I started looking at ER-32 collet chucks, but it seems these aren't entirely recommended either, lots of people thought it was a bad idea so now I am unsure what's a good way to go for me and my lathe.

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ER "system" is fastest and easiest to start with because ... they can be had in plate-mount, straight-shank, common taper shanks - and "some" of the more common spindle-mounts. D1-3, for example. I have them for ALL of my machine-tools, lathes, mills, even the drill presses, rotabs, Dividing Heads, Hex and square "blocks", partly because the wide clamping range for collets lets me clamp anything on anything with not a lot of money tied up in the collets themselves, WHEREAS.. even a set by half-mm or 1/64's won't cover ALL POSSIBLE sizes in 5C. Too limited a grip range. One needs custom or "emergency" collets.

That said, ER (or TG) need careful cleaning, and "prefer" precise torque wrenching, so can be one of the SLOWEST of all collet systems in-use. No surprise, really. They were MEANT for holding seldom-changed tooling, not for holding constantly clamped, turned, released, repeat, repeat, repe... workpieces.

Next up might be a "nose mounted" 5C system opened and closed with a key, much as a Jacobs drill chuck is. Those are also sold as plate mount, bring - or make - yer own backplate to suit the spindle. Plate-mounts can also be gripped in a 4-J, centered by hand. With a D1-3 spindle, I can LEAVE such in a 4-J dedicated to the task and go and use a different 4-J.

Much slower than drawtube with lever-closer, or front-mounted "loop" closer, key or rim-wheel crankers are, but WTH - a nose-mount - key OR lever operated, doesn't care if the spindle even has a through-bore at all. My drill presses do not. No drawtube, y'see.

Soooo.. your limitation to smaller and scarcer spring collets only applies to those that are drawtube operated.

Sjogren "speed" collet chucks ("speedy" they are not, actually), or RubberFlex, legacy, Ortlieb, new, are other options.

I have ER 40, ER 20, 5C, 2J, RubberFlex 9XX, and Pratt-Burnerd Multisize. Every one of them "nose closers", no drawtubes, only wish I could justify the cost of an Ortleib "Quadra" system.

2CW, but if you take the drawtube off the menu at least part of the time, even with that "edge case" lathe, you actually have LOTS of choices. Up to bore-size, you can work off rod or bar stock, and not lose diamater to a drawtube. ABOVE bore size, you'll need precut slugs.

BFD.

Thanks for sharing the images and description of your lathe.

I think you'll find the 5C chuck which is very common in industry toooo big for your machine and you'll only get a limited size range (1-20mm) because of your maximum through bore unless you're working small lengths of stock.

I would suggest by far looking at the ER32 system, tidy and versitile in simple terms and it won't break the bank

John

Thanks for the info, I have to say the draw tube option never entered my mind, I remember seeing that in a Keith Fenner video but never thought much about it as I pretty much wrote it off as a professional device for bigger lathes. I'm perfectly fine with slower options as a hobbyist.

I'll have to look into the other brands you mention, never heard of them before.

DennisCA said:

Thanks for the info, I have to say the draw tube option never entered my mind, I remember seeing that in a Keith Fenner video but never thought much about it as I pretty much wrote it off as a professional device for bigger lathes. I'm perfectly fine with slower options as a hobbyist.

I'll have to look into the other brands you mention, never heard of them before.

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Drawtube, or draw "rod" (solid, not hollow) have been used down to even tiny "watchmaker" sized lathes and remain more common that not for power-operated chucks as well as power-operated collet systems on lathes of many sizes.

I'm not saying "don't go there", simply pointing out that there are plenty of other options.

BTW "key cranked" nose art can be made a tad faster-operating simply by use of a corded, battery, or air-powered screwdriver/wrench, preferably with its own mechanical or electronic torque clutch or control setting.

Oh I see, well I was still thinking of collet designs you tighten via a big nut at the nose mostly. They seemed plenty fast to me on videos I saw them in use.

The Pratt Burnerd system sounded like the best from what I could see, biggest grip range per collet, all steel, accurate. But of course the prices match.

Like Monarchist, I too have all the collet types, but in my experience, they are only useful on medium and larger lathes and only if you are doing multiple parts from standard stock sizes. Most collets do not grip well above or below their stated size and in fact, if used outside of their stated range, you will damage the collet. The exception to that rule is the wider ranging Jacobs rubber collets. You did not mention your spindle size, but I think it is common to the Weiler 260/280 machines of 45mm x 3.5. If so, you will not benefit from collet use and any collet system for your spindle will be very expensive.

If anyone reading this happens to need a set of Jacobs Series 5xx rubber collets, I have a excellent set that I will sell cheap.

The spindle bore of my lathe is 20mm and with an MT3 taper, the diameter is 45mm at the front and 35mm at the rear, here is a cross section:


At the moment the headstock spindle is disassembled, parts are being cleaned and inspected, there is a lot of crud in it. cleaning some parts in the ultrasonic cleaner, I only soaked the bearings though.

Monarchist said:

Sjogren "speed" collet chucks ...

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The kind with the big handwheel thingy around the outside ? I had one. Bought it new. Hated it. Big waste of money, I would dis-recommend that one. They look like they'd be great but in real life, at least for me ...

SeaMoss said:

The kind with the big handwheel thingy around the outside ? I had one. Bought it new. Hated it. Big waste of money, I would dis-recommend that one. They look like they'd be great but in real life, at least for me ...

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Not sure which I love less - the two Sjogrens I have.. or the RubberFlex 9XX with "rotary slide hammer" action.

OTOH, the Sjogren's let me mount 2J cheaply - one came with a full-set or near-as-dammit - and those are rather nicer than 5C, if pricier. Later.. I found a Hardinge nose-mount "loop" closer.. and the Burnerd Multisize.

If I could have only ONE "legacy" collet system? Hands down the Multisize or its gone scarcer-yet Crawford Multibore competitor.

"Modern" collets, big budget?

Ortlieb "Quadra" with its double-ended capability, and choice of spring steel collets or rubber & blade, same mountup.

All that said, a(ny) collet system's main reason for being is repetitive ops for high-volume production off consistently sized feed stock or as a second or subsequent operation, typically round, hex, octagonal, or square.

If that is not your need, there isn't nearly as much point in having even ONE collet system at the spindle as a 4-Jaw, perhaps a 6-Jaw, even a 2-jaw (guilty on all.. also a magnetic chuck...).

"Some" of them, TG, for example, second-place ER, do still make for rather decent drill or tap holding AND can save "daylight" over a Jacobs or Albrecht (style) drill chuck.

As always, there is no "one right answer" that fits all users, machines, or work.

I am using an MT4-ER32 collet chuck o my lathe (1" spindle bore). Draw bar to hold the chuck firmly into the MT4 taper. It is an interim solution, I will be getting an ER40 plain back at some point so that I can make use of the spindle bore for longer materials.
In the meantime it is an effective way of holding round stock concentric. Metric collet set covers a good range, they mostly have a 1mm grip range although they are not as happy at the compression limit.
If you buy collets, you can use them on other machines and tools as well of course. E.g. milling machine and rotary table or dividing head.

I like the ER collet system OK, although it certainly has drawbacks - not what I'd choose for quantities of repetitive operations. OTOH the grip length is greater than 5-C, if that's of concern. My Emco-Maier is equipped with an ER-40 system, the usage is usually one-off, small parts. Useful for removing the work, checking fit and reinstalling, as an example.

The larger Sheldon is (almost) always configured with a 4-jaw. But a well-established procedure is to grip an ER-40 chuck in the 4-jaw and dial it in. When collets are required for a modest amount of parts, this is faster than dismounting the chuck and installing 5-C collets.

FWIW, on one occasion I needed to turn a few small eccentric parts. The ER-40 collet chuck in the 4-jaw could easily be offset for accurately turning the eccentric features. Pretty useful -

Cheers,
randyc

P.S. As previously mentioned, ER-40 is convenient if you have other machines that use the system. My universal-horizontal is so-equipped (also the vertical head for it), I have an ER-40 setup for the vertical mill, although not often used, and I occasionally even use the ER-40 in a lathe tailstock.

randyc said:

I occasionally even use the ER-40 in a lathe tailstock.

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Keeping in mind that the NUMBER in the ER system is the collet length, not max diameter, an ER-20 in the TS or drilling fixture on the cross slide is super nice to have when.... an otherwise lovely 10EE is limited to a stingy 20" c-to-c.

Just look at a Jacobs - or far longer-yet Albrecht - chuck's daylight budget compared to the short ER or TG, and the TS or carriage may be the MOST often used application for many of us.

Using an ER-40 chuck threaded directly onto the spindle of a SB 9 and need to make one for my SB 14 1/2. The collet chuck stays on 90% of the time. It gives me so much more room to work by the "chuck" and runout is great for most stuff depending on what you are doing.

randc mentioned it but it hasn't been directly stated: the item you are holding should be extend into the collet almost the full length of the collet. Since ER collets collapse from both front and back the collet bore ends up collapsing more on the back side if it is not fully supported by the work piece. This is not much of an issue on the 1st operation but turning the back side of a piece or doing rework it can cause issues.

If it has an M3 taper it's like my little Logan. I'd get a M3 adapter and use 3C or 3AT collets for up to 1/2 inch. They sell M3 collets too, so you could do that.

Well it seems it would be a waste of money based on the replies, perhaps a cheap ER-32 chuck from ebay with a homemade backplate might be worth it.

I also have to correct myself

Been watching This Old Tony on youtube, and he has a lot of use from his 5C collet chuck.

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I don't know where I got that it was a 5C, it's a pratt burnerd multisize collet chuck he's got, for a colchester lathe. His lathe doesn't seem much bigger than mine, but much beefier anyway.

DennisCA said:

it's a pratt burnerd multisize collet chuck he's got, for a colchester lathe. His lathe doesn't seem much bigger than mine, but much beefier anyway.

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You probably ain't gonna be able to get there from here with your tiny spindle. Even a nose-mount would be heavy and daylight-greedy.

OTOH.. Ortlieb - and others - did or still DO have some smaller RubberFlex "style" goods you might be able to adapt. Look at what they sell for tapping heads, etc.

Personally, I'd go with ER 20 (and did do), and ER 40. They "meet" in range, so I skipped ER 32. The -20 makes for smaller nut and hang-out than -32. The -40 can take seriously larger diameters, even if my own bore-challenged 10EE won't pass the largest of them.

Downside is that NONE OF Multisize, RubberFlex, nor ER are happy with material that sit much less than 100% of their collet's length, whereas spring collets that grip right at the nose (5C and a ton of others..) don't much mind. Hence my 5C and 2J collections..

Also sets of the factory-spec'ed rubber "butt plugs" for the Jacobs 9XX.

PS: "depth stops". Most 5C are internally threaded for them, and the goods are common. The Multisize, RubberFlex, and ER not so easily, if at all.

No fear. Attach a clamping collar at spindle rear, fab an adjustable rod that runs the length of the bore, and you have a depth-stop function for those - or any other collet. Or chuck.

I'm in a bit different camp when it comes to collet chuck choices. I have an older Seneca Falls Star #20 in the shop that uses a 5C collet chuck. The bore size is similar to the OP's. It works fine unless you want to do sizes over 3/4" that are so long they need to go through the spindle bore.

In my case I made the chuck from a casting set available from the Metal Lathe website:

http://www.statecollegecentral.com/metallathe/MLA21.html

When I ordered it I spoke with Andy Lofquist as to the finished weight of the chuck. It is less than half the shipping weight. The shipping weight is listed as 22 lbs. The finished chuck is a little over 9 lbs. The kit with castings and prints sells for $118.50 plus $16.20 shipping. Andy also offers just the prints for $8.50 if you want to review the project or make it from scratch

It's a version of one originally made by Pat Loop and published in the Machinists Workshop magazine Volume 1 number 3 June-July 1988. The article included detailed plans and a narrative on how to make the chuck from round stock. The article is still available from the Machinist's Workshop website:

Article Index Machinist's Workshop

Here's a link to a video of one being made from the kit available from the State College Metal Lathe website:

loop collet chuck - YouTube

The kit is much easier to build in that the castings are already the rough shape of the chuck. If you build from scratch there will be a considerable amount of lathe work just getting the stock to remotely resemble the finished product.

If you're careful building it you can get the run out down to .0002". I've used mine for several years without any problems. The reason I chose it was because I already had 5C collets for an indexer. I also use them on my Sheldon lathe.

For hobby use, just get a 5c collet block and use it with your 3 jaw chuck.