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OT Radient floor sizing pex

bigearl67

Hot Rolled
Joined
Apr 10, 2009
Location
Sticks, Indiana
I’m building my “dream micro gun shop” attached to my current garage and after discussing the slab with my concrete guy yesterday decided to go with a radiant floor system. The work will be on me and what I really need to know is how much pex and what size I need to lay out. From what I understand it’s one line heating six inches either side so one linear foot per square foot of slab? Also I will have one section, 4x24’ that will be completely covered with lathes, big lathes. Does it make sense to heat under these five tons of machinery? I do know to insulate the slab and frost wall and we will be using wire mesh so I can tie directly to it. Is 5/8” pex or 3/4” standard? I will most likely use glycol as I have a local, free, source and my slab with be 23’x27’. Thanks to anyone who can give me some answers. Earl.
 
bigear167,
I can offer no help what so ever. But, I am planning on heating a driveway (concrete) with pipe and some kind of liquid.
Lay the pipe just a head of the concrete mixer, run them to a easy
place to secure heat and then get enough money to hook her up.

I will be watching this thread with great interest.

Regards Walt...
 
bigear167,
I can offer no help what so ever. But, I am planning on heating a driveway (concrete) with pipe and some kind of liquid.
Lay the pipe just a head of the concrete mixer, run them to a easy
place to secure heat and then get enough money to hook her up.

I will be watching this thread with great interest.

Regards Walt...

I knew a very wealthy guy in Pennsy that had his driveway that way...

Would'nt it be a lot cheaper to just move to FLORIDA ?
 
I am just finishing my house (after 19 years of construction!), and it has a professionally designed radiant heating system. It seems to work very well: the company is one of the most experienced in the country and they guaranteed +/1 degree wall-to-wall and floor-to-ceiling. I scoffed at this spec but at least by casual measurement they seem to have achieved it.

By observation, a couple of points:

*The size of PEX is determined by the run of each leg. They attempted to get each run about 200' long (coming from and terminating in a manifold), and tried to keep the variance in length to a minimum ( maybe +/- 20 ft) by careful layout. Not doing so requires flow balancing valves in each leg which is a pita. For the runs in the floor they used 1/2" Pex, for small zones there is a 1/2" feeder and return to the manifold, for larger manifolds there is a 5/8" feeder and return. The house is 5400 sq ft and has 13 zones, 6000' of PEX in the floor.

They did not put tubes under cabinets etc. - unnecessary and might overheat a bit. However they did not extend that to moveable furniture: generally there is some air space underneath, and you don't know where it is going to end up anyway. Unless I was absolutely sure I would never change machines or rearrange the the shop, I would put tubes under the machines. They conduct heat pretty well anyway so it just adds to your radiant surface.

They ran tubes 6" on center near the perimeter and particularly near windows and doors: the assumption that there is more heat loss there. 12" on center otherwise.

I installed it and poured light weight concrete over the tubes from 1.5 inches thick to 2.5 in different places. For a shop I would use real concrete and make it as thick as your other considerations allow. With the thin sections in particular, the PEX creates all kinds of interesting cracking and warping as the concrete cures. Covered up in a home, but exposed in a shop. Since you are putting it inside the structural slab, maybe no problems. Mine was an overlay on slab and joist floor.

The radiant heat is a spectacular improvement in comfort over forced air, in my opinion. Its only negative is the slow response rate to a change in thermostat, like several hours. However I can comfortably keep the thermostats set at 64 or 65 degrees and it feels like 72 with a forced air system. I would be particularly good for the machines, due to the stability.

Edit: Oh, one more thing. Get the system hooked up and under test pressure when you pour. Monitor the gage frequently. In a slab the workers may be trodding all over the tubes as they work the concrete. If you see the pressure drop, it is much easier to find and fix then, than later. Also pressurize with water, not air - pump enough water through the leak and you will be able to find it, not so sure about air, plus air will change pressure just from temp changes and freak you out.
 
Radiant floor heat? I know two guys with large shops heated this way. IMO, it's awful.

I heard a construction specialist addressing the issue. The main problem is you have to be a fortune teller to know when to lower or raise the thermostat. The systems aren't immediately responsive so you have to anticipate future weather.

If your intent is to turn the heat on and off only when needed, or off at night, then radiant heat isn't a good thing. As you say, the response is measured in hours. You need to set the thermostat and leave it alone - no need to anticipate the weather. Mine holds temperature +/- 1 deg, day/night, winter/summer. Obviously this is only economical in a well insulated building, but then it is quite economical, because the thermostat can be set lower and you will still be comfortable. Low 60's, if you are moving about, is quite comfortable in a tee shirt.
 
Radiant floor heat? I know two guys with large shops heated this way. IMO, it's awful.

I heard a construction specialist addressing the issue. The main problem is you have to be a fortune teller to know when to lower or raise the thermostat. The systems aren't immediately responsive so you have to anticipate future weather.

I don't think you are supposed to be changing the thermostat all of the time. Just set it and leave it alone. It does take a while to heat up a few tons of concrete, but man is it nice when it gets there.

Here is a thread that might have some useful info.
Hearth.com Wood Stove and Pellet Stove Forums....and much more! | Those useful tidbits of information

Here is a formula for sizing piping and picking pumps.
http://www.taco-hvac.com/uploads/FileLibrary/SelectingCirculators.pdf
I've got a 28*48 shop in sw mi. Ive got four loops of 1/2 pex running with a grundfos 15-42 it is a little small but it works. next time I'll use a 15-58 set on high speed to help get some heat out further in the runs. If you go with 1/2 pipe you can get CHEAP manifolds for them. The spun copper ones cost hardly anything. OTOH if you use 5/8 or 3/4 the price of the manifolds almost goes through the roof.

with valves http://www.taco-hvac.com/uploads/FileLibrary/SelectingCirculators.pdf

without 6-port, 1/2" PEX Plumbing Manifold by Sioux Chief - eBay (item 270353479143 end time Feb-27-10 13:14:26 PST)


and a 3/4 - 5/8 Brass Manifold for Radiant Heat Pex - 4 Circuit - eBay (item 120525344010 end time Mar-02-10 22:10:12 PST)
 
First, make sure to insulate the building well. Insulation under the FULL slab should be used, not just around the perimeter. At least 2" and make sure what you use is approved for under slab use and that you checked the manufacturer's web site to make sure. For under your big machines you can get higher PSI rating from a specialty insulation company. The advertised load ratings (like 25 PSI) for foam is the temporary load rating. The continuous load rating (like when you install a big machine on it) is much lower (maybe 1/3), read the manufacturer's web site to find how much less.

Read everything on the radiantcompany.com web site. Then read it again.

Put down the tubing and connect the manifolds well ahead of time and pressure test the system with air. The time to fix a piece of bad PEX is before the concrete arrives.

Install a 2' - 3' piece of PEX with the end capped and running into the slab. This is so your temp sensor can measure the temp of the inside of the slab, not the temp of the room.

When the concrete crew arrives, explain the need for them to not slam their rakes into the concrete over the tubing. Holding a shotgun during the conversation will help.

Have the system pressurized (again with air) when the concrete is poured so you can tell if it gets punctured by the previously mentioned concrete guys.

Steve.
 
Install a 2' - 3' piece of PEX with the end capped and running into the slab. This is so your temp sensor can measure the temp of the inside of the slab, not the temp of the room.

I am curious as to why you would want to measure the temperature of the slab? After all it is the temperature in the room that needs regulating. My system does not measure anything in the slab, normal thermostats are set at 54" above the floor. The temperature of the slab varies noticeably depending on the outside temperature (and therefore the heat loss of the building). It seems to me that regulating the temperature of the slab would lead to poor regulation of room temp.
 
I have radiant heat in my house (under a wood floor). Designed and installed it myself. ½" PEX on 1' centers. Works flawlessly.

If I was doing my shop, I would most definitely run the PEX everywhere... why not put a bit of heat into the machinery in winter?
 
One thing I would strongly recommend is to do a very accurate job of laying out the lines. Then make a drawing, including dimensions, of what you've done. That way, at some time in the future, when you need to drill holes in the slab to anchor equipment, or for any other reason, you know where the lines are.
Jim
 
Insulation of the building will play a fairly big role, you need to know how much BTU you actually need. What will you heat the water with?


I did my own system last year for the new house/shop. Its a very well insulated building(ICF), our winters aren't too bad at all here. Some -10C, rarely much lower than that.
I searched a lot, had 2 companies do an estimate which was completely NUTS and they wouldn't have done half the job I wanted for it and started to argue about what I WANTED. Then finally went to a plumbing place that supplies to regular plumbers and happen to also supply all the infloor heating stuff but don't install. They just sell at a regular FAIR price, and for free did their own estimate of what they figure would be needed. I compared that with my notes, made my own shopping lists, some changes.
I decided against running it for the 2nd level, just pre-wired upstairs for electric baseboards but didn't install them(reason to follow)

I used 2" foam under the slab, High Load 40 for the "garage" side. I have 10M rebar tied 12"x12", its on 3" chairs. Pex is 1/2" and in 250ft rolls, oxygen barrier, forget which brand now but it was nice stuff. I tied it aprox 12" in between, I kept a closer loop for the perimeter of the building about 4" from the inside wall. It took 750ft(3rolls) to do my 18x34 garage. I had about 7" of concrete poured which put the tubing about half way in the slab, along with the rebar. You can go with larger PEX if you want, it'll have a higher BTU loss per linear foot, and can also carry hot water a bit further if needed. Or you can run the 1/2" closer together, up to you.

Similar deal on the house side, but regular 30psi foam, and 4" concrete, 1" chairs, 15" between rebar.

I use a 12KW Argo boiler to heat the water. I set it to a max of 110F water temp, it will get to that if running one slab, but in the little testing of it I did it hangs about 90F if I try to heat both slabs from cold start. Its perfectly fine that way, no reason to run 140F. I do think putting a 16KW boiler wouldn't have hurt and I'd go with that if doing it again. They're only another $100 and like the 12KW, shut elements off when not needed anyway(meter just spins faster haha). But the Wire(copper) to power it is pricey(but you can size the wise to the actual amp of the unit, not to the breaker, according to our codes anyway)

But guess what.... My infloor heating hasn't turned on at all so far this winter, and never will. It will only be used if we go away for more than a few days, so it kinda sucks to know its just sitting there(no glycol here, straight water).

Reason for it not being used is I have one wood stove on the house side, running it a couple hours on soft wood gets the whole house(1600sq/ft living space) at 80F(or more). I have no heat in the garage other than what makes it through my office door, its usually between 68-72F in there(machines kinda warm the place up too).

You'll find that most " Professionals " will say to just throw a wire mesh at the bottom on the foam and many just staple the tubing to the foam,(there's large staples and a type of gun made for it) I think its a F-ing joke, sure its quick, easy, and they charge a mad price for it, imagine what they'd charge to do it right. Mesh is worth nothing in concrete, more so at the bottom(either way its too weak), and tubing at the bottom means longer response time, and it just plain makes little sense at all unless you pour a real thin slab(so do only pour 2-3"). Keep it closer to the top, mid slab made sense to me if I have to ever drill into the concrete a bit I know I have at least 3" of concrete on them.

Pressure test, and keep the pressure during the pour. I only had 30PSI, I was lucky the guys didn't put any hole in it(rough bunch) should have had 70-100PSI, keeps it from collapsing too much as they walk all over it, also quicker to find a leak if it pierces.

As for your actually boiler/manifold set up, that's a fun other list of things. There's many ways to do it, there's only a couple things I'd change on mine. So if you need info on that i don't mind take a few pics and doing more writing.

(post too long to bother re-reading, hopefully some of it makes sense...)
 
Do take pictures, lots of pictures. It's been useful to me a few times always to be able to gage where some of the tubing is.

Oh and do run it under the machines. Before you put them there now, doesn't mean those machines will be there later. Do the full concrete slab.

There's 6mil vapour barrier under the foam. Ideally there should have been a layer on top of it too, or taping all the joints in the foam, learned that one afterward(actually just a few weeks ago watching tv). Doesn't matter too much though, and I ain't changing it now. :)

Pic, before clipping all the tie wraps.


DSCF0004-3.jpg
 
bigearl 67, you will be very happy with a radiant floor heat in your shop. SND did a very good discription of a good layout for radiant heat, which is very close to the same as what I did in the home I built in northern Missouri 5 years ago. ICF walls, 1/2 PEX tubing 12 - 14 inches apart, divided into 3 zones. heat source is a standard 40 gal. electric water heater 7 KW. I built my own manafolds with valves for about 1/3 the cost of the manufactured manafolds. Heating 2400 sq. ft. of living space. I run my water temperature a 90 - 95 degree F. It has got down to -15 a couple of times this winter and have had no problems with keeping the living space a 70 degrees.
 
I am curious as to why you would want to measure the temperature of the slab? After all it is the temperature in the room that needs regulating.

Because if he uses a 6" slab, that is 11 tons of concrete which has a large thermal mass and measuring the temp directly can keep it steady. Granted, this assumes the building is well insulated.

Steve.
 
Outside reset

They sell controls called "Outdoor reset"- what they call the way to monitor outside temperature to keep your radiant heat floor from overheating the area you are occupying when there is a quick temperature change outside.

My Munchkin brand boiler has it. What it does is vary the firing rate of the gas burner. If the outdoor temp is moderate, it doesn't fire as hard when the system calls for heat, but if it is a fridgid artic gale outside, the burner will really put out the heat. All automatic and it really works!

A good way to describe outdoor reset is "cruise control" for your heater. A normal heater or boiler, when it is called to heat, burns maximum BTU continously thru the heating cycle. Doesn't matter if it is 59 degrees or 5 degrees outside~ burner is W.F.O. til the thermostat is satisfied. That is how in slab systems get a bad reputation. They overheat the living area because you are sending maximum BTU to the floor instead of just enough to make up the heat loss.

With outdoor reset, the system adjusts firing rate depending on outside temperature.

Also, and just as important, there is a good argument to have the water flowing in your slab continously, so if and when the room cools down the system will just add heat to that water. You do this by way of using a heat exchanger in your system. Boiler (or whatever you are gonna heat the water with) water doesn't mix with the water in your slab. It is its' own little system. Floor water circulates continously, and at a call for heat the water heating system you choose only has to heats its' volume of water and the heat is transferred to the floor slab via the heat exchanger.

Heat exchangers are plentiful on ebay- search brazed plate heat exchanger.

Those small cartridge hydronic pumps are energy efficient and don't draw much current. I leave mine running constantly. It doesn't take much horsepower to circulate water in the loops.
 
If your nighttime vs. daytime temps are in the 30º swing range, you may want to consider adding a forced air system as a supplement. During those transition periods of Fall and Spring, a hot floor with a sudden rise in outside temp can be a real problem, not to mention expensive. During the dead of winter, you won't have this problem.

Don't forget.....NO concrete nails in the floor when anchoring or building partitions. Everything is glued.
 
I have distributed radiant heating equipment for the last 15 years and here is what I would recommend. For a shop floor use 3/4 pipe and keep all loops with in 10% of each other in length. 12 inch on center will work fine. Keep your loop lengths under 500 foot to keep your head pressure down. The best way to do this is to lay your tubing out on CAD system before laying any pipe. I would also recommend cable tying a trace wire along each loop. You can then run a signal through the wire at time to locate your tubing. Very useful if you ever need to drill into your slab to bolt down a machine.

Temp response time can be a problem. It is normally not a problem in a shop warehouse setting because floor temps are typically cooler and have no coverings. Well controlled water temp that you put into your floor is critical in achieving a quality installation. The best way to pipe your boiler to your manifolds is by using a injection system with variable speed pump. Basicly you have a boiler loop and a floor loop. These two loops are then coupled together via an variable speed injection pump. This pump is hooked up to a inexpensive controller which looks at inside, outside temp and return loop water to determine how hot of water to put into your floor. Hope this helps
 
If you did not run the tubing in all areas of the slab, wouldn't that cause problems? I can imagine the unheated areas drawing heat from the heated areas causing temp distribution problems, and causing expansion/contraction problems. Am I overthinking this?
 








 
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