Custom cutting tool

Hi

I'm looking for some suggestions on who I can contact to make this cutting tool and/or suggestions on the tool itself e.g. what the maker would need to know, etc.

I couldn't find anyone local who can make it. I found a company in Germany that makes mostly cutting tools for musical instruments (which is what this is) but I\d like to find some others and get several quotes.

Attached some photos of somewhat similar tools and a lame drawing I made (cross section). The cutting tool I need is essentially the same as the ones in the photos, except instead of a flat end I would need a 16 degree taper (basically opposite of a chamfer tool), with a threaded hole through it but without the outer threads at the other end which these have. I might want a few in different sizes (possibly double ended). Number of teeth is not critical and not sure yet. The tool will be used 70% by hand and 30% on a mill, and only on relatively soft materials like wood and plastic. Tool diameters could be around 6mm-20mm.

Thank you for any suggestions!

Hi clarnibass:
I assume this will be used to make chamfers on the ends of round pegs.
If these are going to be used to cut wood and plastic they will have to be kept extremely sharp if you intend to avoid tearout and bad finishes.
How do you plan to accomplish that?
It is possible to sinker EDM a shape such as you have drawn, but it will not be possible for you to sharpen it except by hand with a small pencil grinder or a slip stone, unless you make removable blades so they can be individually re-ground on a surface or cutter grinder.
It is also possible to cut these teeth with a slotter or a shaper and then harden the cutter; that is how the sample cutters you show appear to have been made, although the flat crown allows the teeth on the sample cutters to be milled rather than cutting them by EDM or with a slotter as yours must be unless you can accept very few teeth (6 maximum) with rounded gullets in which case they can be milled.

In any event; there will not be a lot of shops who can make these easily, so they won't be cheap.
If you can live with a small tooth count I'd mill them with an indexer from the side and then put the tooth clearance on from the ends; then harden them and sharpen them with a slip stone under the microscope.
Otherwise I'd burn them with the sinker EDM and sharpen them by hand under the scope as before.

Cheers

Marcus
Implant Mechanix • Design & Innovation > HOME
www.vancouverwireedm.com

Might try Severance Tool.

Severance Tool - Countersinks, Deburring Cutters, Cutting Tools

Thank you.

The cutters in the photos are actually used almost only on on non-ferrous metals, by hand. I probably have them for close to a decade, never sharpened, and they are still work great. I guess it's a matter of how much I use them.

I also have cutters like the one in this photo (attach to this post) which are used on wood and plastic and by hand only. It is a very simple cutter that only has a taper with slots, but works fine because it only needs to remove very little material. I also have it for many years and it works great without no sharpening.

Whatever tool I get, I won't be using it that much, so based on experience with the other tools, I'm not so concerned about sharpening.
The tool will be used to make a chamfer and to level (i.e. make the top flat) on holes drilled into round rod.

Thanks again

I have a combination external chamfer and internal reaming tool that is intended to be used on tubing after it is cut. It is about 1" or more in diameter. It is constructed of molded plastic with three hardened, tool steel blades in it. One side of the blades do the external chamfers and the other side do the internal reaming. I think both sides are angled at about 45 degrees, but I could be wrong.

I would think a similar tool could be made with three or four hardened cutters inserted in a steel or aluminum shell at the angle you want. Set screws or soft solder to hold them in place. This may be an easier way of making them and therefore less expensive. The blades would be fully formed before inserting them.

If you follow that link to severence tool Jancollc provided us you see that a outside chamfering tool needs to be ground differently than the examples provided by the OP
Here is a example

Now you see it is easy to do on a toolgrinder
Peter

What is the OD ? If it is a common size ( like a 3/4 or 20 mm or some such, if a tool grinder with a small diameter wheel could cut the profile, you could grind them out of an already hardened piece of steel, like say an end mill shank or a HSS round tool. That is, if you could live without the threads...

clarnibass said:

The tool will be used to make a chamfer and to level (i.e. make the top flat) on holes drilled into round rod.

Thanks again

Click to expand...

I'm not visualizing the 'making the top flat' aspect of that tool.

Hi All:
Here's a snippet from the OP's first post:
" Tool diameters could be around 6mm-20mm."
The 20 mm tool is not too bad to make and sharpen by several different methods as the Severance reverse chamfer tool shown by jancolic and Peter from Holland proves.
The 6 mm diameter tool is a bit of a different story.

Also,the tool shown in the second post by the OP has no relief, so it will not shear, it will only scrape.
A diamond plated mandrel will do that too, and they're relatively cheap to have plated at any one of a number of vendors.
You can get a similar, though not as aggressive an action by sinker EDM cutting the face of the tool with a coarse finish; in fact the OP's second tool had the slots EDM cut and relies on the recast layer forming a bur at the face of the tool to do whatever scraping it can do.

Cheers

Marcus
Implant Mechanix • Design & Innovation > HOME
www.vancouverwireedm.com

Thanks. I'll clarify a few things.

This is my second language and I'm not familiar with many of the terms.

The exact shape of the tool doesn't have to be like the ones I posted. These are just examples that are somewhat similar in some aspects, so make it clearer than just describing (hopefully).

Basically a "reversed" (outer?) chamfer tool is what I need, but the angle has to be specific and the cut has to be all the way to the edge of the tool (like an end mill). The tool shown in Peter's post has the main problem of the part at the outer edge of its diameter. The tool will cut over a hole drilled into the side of a rod, so it cuts to its very edge, not "cutting air" anywhere (except the center, depending on the hole diameter, but uses a guide explained later). The very edge of the diameter (maybe 0.2mm or less I'm guesstimating) can be ok if shaped like the tool in Peter's post, as long as it cuts there too, but not really more than that. If there's a non-cutting edge then it would rub and push against the material.

Re the diameters, 6mm-20mm is the approximate range for the sizes. The exact sizes would have to be specific and possibly some of them not standard. I'm not sure yet but for example I think 11.5mm is a size I would likely need first. They have to match the sizes already on the instruments (pretty accurately).

Re the "making the top flat" aspect, flat might be the wrong term. Maybe level? What I mean is, visualize a hole drilled into a round rod (from the side, not at the end). The hole would then have a curved top, same as the rod diameter. The tool would cut a chamfer on the outside of that hole, plus make its top "level" i.e. so a flat part can be put against it without rocking. I hope this is clear?

Re the threads, this is important since when used by hand (which is most of the time), I will use threaded guides in various sizes which will go into the drilled hole, to align the tool with the hole.

On a mill, the same can be done with e.g. a boring tool ground to the correct shape and angle. For this tool I need enough teeth to make it work by hand.

Thanks again

clarnibass said:

...The tool would cut a chamfer on the outside of that hole, plus make its top "level" i.e. so a flat part can be put against it without rocking. I hope this is clear?

Re the threads, this is important since when used by hand (which is most of the time), I will use threaded guides in various sizes which will go into the drilled hole, to align the tool with the hole.

Click to expand...

So can I re-phrase what you are describing?

You have a hole through a rod, from the side. You want to deburr the hole, and spotface it so that a screw with a flat washer or whatever goes through the hole has a flat surface to mate with.

Yes?

Where does the 32 degree included angle fit in?

Maybe it would be easier if you gave us a sketch of the finished feature, rather than the cutter.

Hi clarnibass:
Is this what you're trying to make?
Cheers

Marcus
www.implant-mechanix.com
www.vancouverwireedm.com

I've been assuming you want to cut something like the tone hole, or the face of the hole where a clarinet or saxophone pad might seat.

If you have a milling machine available, and some time on your hands, you might want to try making this kind of tool yourself. As a matter of suggestion, I did a quick trial for myself with a simple spin index and a dovetail cutter. Here are a few shots of my little experiment:









In the first shot you can see I don't have the axis of the spin index at an angle - it's cutting straight across at the end.

As I made successive cuts, the crests of the teeth were cut lower toward the center, where they are naturally spaced closer together.

The result was a nice conical cutter that might do what you intend.

You'd need to fiddle around a bit, and do a fair bit of needle file and stone work to make the teeth less ragged and develop the cutting angles that work best. For this kind of simple low-use specialized cutter, I usually select W-1 water-hardening steel, heat it to bright red and quench in oil. I skip any kind of further work except to hone the cutting edges. I find I can knock out pretty decent wood and soft metal cutting tools very quickly this way, particularly when the geometry can be "casual." Once you get into doing this kind of thing, you'll amazed at how often you make little special cutters and things.

Remember, you can practice on easy-to-machine steels, or even brass to test setups. Even a soft brass cutter will do a nice job on ebony for one or two trial cuts to see how things are turning out.

Looks like a counterbore to me. A piloted counterbore could be resharpened to get the cone angle. I am not understanding which way the angle is going. For the angle part is the bigger diameter part near or farther from the center axis.
I wonder if there are ready made cutters for tube fitting such as automotive brake line connections. If the center part is good the outer diameter could be ground away.
Bill D

SAE Port Contour Cutters On Form Relief Tool Co.

He talks about the necessity of a threaded hole for a pilot. I'd think a thru hole would work as well. I know I've seen and used counterbores with interchangeable pilots that were on a stem and used a nut on the end that protruded thru the end of the shank. As far as cutting to the preriphery, especially as he's talking about a shallow angle where the corner of the tooth isn't so fragile as the tool with a more acute angle such as the one in Peter's post, I wouldn't think it would be as much as an issue. Particularly as he's talking about turning by hand. I agree that a picture is worth a thousand words if we could see what He's actually cutting!

guest said:

So can I re-phrase what you are describing?

.......

Yes?

Click to expand...

Yes and no...

guest said:

Where does the 32 degree included angle fit in?

Click to expand...

It's 16 degrees shown in the drawing but if looking at it as the total angle (e.g. like a 90 degree chamfer tool would be 45 degrees on either "side") then I guess you could call it 148 degrees (180-16x2)? This angle would match what's already on the most popular instruments, where I would use it to re-cut a filled hole as opposed to making a new one.It is also a good angle in case I'm creating a new tone hole.

guest said:

Maybe it would be easier if you gave us a sketch of the finished feature, rather than the cutter.

Click to expand...

implmex said:

Hi clarnibass:
Is this what you're trying to make?

Click to expand...

Yes, implmex is exactly correct!
I'm also attaching a photo of one.

Frank Ford said:

I've been assuming you want to cut something like the tone hole, or the face of the hole where a clarinet or saxophone pad might seat.

Click to expand...

Yes exactly, it is for a clarinet tone hole (sax is different). I thought clarinet tone hole wouldn't mean much to anyone here...

Frank Ford said:

If you have a milling machine available, and some time on your hands, you might want to try making this kind of tool yourself.

Click to expand...

I do have a (very small) milling machine, but doing this would be a huge project... different from what I normally do, not really set up for it, don't have a rotary table, getting material would mean going to another city, without a car, minimum of 2m length of material, finding the cutter to make the cutter at another place at the North, etc.
This will take me a couple of full days at least before I even have anything, without some of the tools requires to do it, and I have too much other work to do
I make some of my own tools but in this case I rather buy it.

Onepass said:

He talks about the necessity of a threaded hole for a pilot. I'd think a thru hole would work as well.

Click to expand...

Yes, a pilot held with a nut at the other end or even by friction (when used by hand) might work too. The fit of the guide "shaft" in the hole would create the accurate alignment. With a thread, I thought I would angle the back of the guide and this would align it with the cutter. I think the threaded guides would be easier for me to make but if this reduces the cost of the cutter a lot then maybe worth it.

I contacted the shop recommended here (sent diagram and finished example too). BTW the German company that makers cutters for musical instrument makers is this one Leistner Werkzeuge - Prazisionswerkzeuge fur die Zerspanung

Thank you so much!

Though the tool you need to obtain might be easy for many folks to make on their mills or tool grinders, you make a it very clear that your situation is not amenable to that approach. But let's have some fun with this.

I believe clarinets have been made since at least the Middle Ages. However, I'm guessing that in 1600 when a tone-hole tool was needed, it was not made on a milling machine or tool grinder.

I'm also guessing you are pretty good with hand tools and even enjoy using them.

So, much as the finest woodworking rasps are hand cut, I think the cutter you show could be hand filed pretty easily. Just mail order a foot of O1 tool steel from McM, cut an appropriate length, turn the 16deg recess, center drill it, blue up the end, scribe the cutter lines in it, hand file the relief angles with a decent triangular file, and then harden and temper it. That all should take an hour or maybe two. Then reblue the cutting end and just back off each tooth with a fine/coarse stone til the blue is gone. Any slight irregularity in tooth spacing will not hurt a thing and may reduce chatter (think variable pitch band saw blade). Drive in a center pilot plug.

Put a nice rosewood and brass handle/knob on the tool and a couple coats of wax or tung oil on it and BRAVISSIMO! You have a fine tool.

Denis

Might add that I have used that very approach to make special plug cutters that were not commercially available.

Hi clarnibass. My son is a luthier who often needs special tools for violins ,guitars and mandolins that can't be readily purchased or are for custom work. He recently needed a reverse countersink that could be used up in the body of a guitar to countersink the holes that hold the neck on. The only way to access the neck block is from the inside. I made him a very simple single flute countersink with the cutting edge toward the shaft. The collar sets the depth and it is just pulled from the outside until the proper depth is cut. This tool was very easy to make as I just milled across the body and hand ground relief behind the cutter. It works very well for his application. You could probably file the groove with a little patience and then file the relief. In your case you could possibly drill into the cutter and insert a small shaft to act as a pilot. The pilot would fit into the hole in the clarinet and you would rotate the cutter by hand which would cut the seat.

Nice clarinet, btw. Definitely want to not cut this wrong! (For the non-clarinetists: A new Buffet R13 B flat clarinet runs about from $3500 to 6500).

These look like piloted hinge tube shorteners/cutters/facers ?? Have you checked some of the instrument repair suppliers such as:

D29 Tubular Hinge Shorteners – Ferree's Tools Inc

also
JLS Hinge Tube Facer

I would expect that you could arrange international shipping.

-Jess