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I thought times are bad in NE ohio, then I went to Detriot today!

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Craig Donges

Stainless
Joined
Oct 19, 2008
Location
Berlin Center (NE) Ohio
Greetings all;

First off, I am located near Youngstown Ohio which has been in a downward spiral since the early 80's. We haven't reached the bottom yet and I didn't think it could get any worse than here. In a nutshell, we are the armpit of Ohio, not the upper-crusters.

I had to go to Detroit today to pick up a few things. Man, it's real tough up there. I saw entire shopping plazas that had only one store open. I drove past one freight facility that had several huge buildings, each was posted as having 600,000 square foot available, not a single truck in the lot, anywhere! These are not the old World War 2 type structures, but very late model facilities in what should be the good part of town.

I could go on and on. Where is it all going to end? I came away from Detriot thinking what kind of future do they have? Saw on the news the other night Detriot city schools have a graduation rate of 32%. That's the rate it graduates, not the dropout rate! How does a city (or nation) survive this?

Just looking for hope and change, but how long can they wait? The people in Detriot probably have a real bleak forecast ahead.

Sorry if this is a rambling post, it really struck me knida' hard.

Craig Donges
 
I've been up there a bit lately. It is just amazing how bad it is. I used to go there every year, working at the Indy Car race. I thought it was a pit then.......It's a lot worse now. On the other hand you sure can rent or buy commercial / industrial property for next to nothing. Home prices are some of the lowest in the country also. With so many people out of work, finding employees shouldn't be hard.
 
It is a shame, I was in Detroit early in the summer, downtown with all the beautiful art deco buildings empty and decaying. Potential for huge regrowth but in such a terrible state currently. Its amazing how a stigma against productive work can kill a city. Hamilton is similar but not nearly as bad as Detroit.

On the other hand just north in the suburbs in Birmingham the artsy fartsy 10 dollar coffee and 300 dollar jeans crowd seems completely unaware of the loss of the productive industrial portion of the local economy. (I was taking my now ex-wife to one of these fancy designer clothing stores to spend a few days pay)
 
I spent a weekend 10 years ago in the suburbs with a buddy and asked him to show me the "bad" parts of Detroit. Took me to an area called Highland Park. Boarded up stores everywhere. Looking down the side streets you could see houses that were just burned out shells. He told me some were burned during the riots in the 60s and the owners just simply left. Ate lunch at a German restaurant that was opened before WW2, the parking lot had a chain link fence topped with razor wire to protect the customers and their cars.

Nice city.

Steve.
 
This is where it all started.

Its sad that area is where it all started for the modern machining world. A buddy at work made a comment the problem with coporate America they want the profits NOW there not in it for the long haul MR. CEO whats it NOW.
 
Yes, Detroit is in some serious bad shape. The forcast is that it's only going to get worse. I am engineer with undergrad and graduate degrees in engineering along with fifteen years of experience at Ford. I made it through countless rounds of "survivor". Basically rounds of separations and reorgs that happened on average every six months. I was shuffled from a job I loved into positions that got progressively worse with each reorg. Worked for people that really should have been assigned to more appropriate positions where they couldn't hurt themselves.

Over the last few years it was very difficult to see some very talented and gifted people get shown the door simply because they weren't "yes men" or played the game of politics as good as others. It actually makes people angry to see good people leave only to find dead wood still floating around. Everybody knows who these worthless people are and wonder why they are still around. Bottom line is they know the right asses to kiss up to. I don't play that game.

In the end I actually was happy to be let go. It's like you know the end if finally here and you can get on with your life. It was great to get out of an environment with such poor employee moral. Got a parting gift of a severance package and six months of time to spend with my two young children... which was priceless.

Now for reality check. Where to go. The short answer is out of state. Almost every single person I know that was let go, need both fingers and toes to count them all, had to leave the state to find work. We are talking well educated people with a lot to offer an employer. There is just no work in SE Michigan.

I myself had to leave the state and am currently in Philadelphia working for a small startup company. From a technical engineering and career outlook perspective, I am in the best job I've ever been in. I am doing what I love to do again. Guess what, my performance show it. I really love my job. Lots of challenges and learning enormous amounts every day.

Now for the down side. I had to for the mean time leave my wife and kids back in Michigan. My wife is a professional and works in SE Michigan. Working for a startup is exciting but the reality is that there is a great deal of risk involved. Having her quit her job could be financial suicide. Basically I'm a single/married guy with kids and my wife is now a single mom with a remote husband. It's like I'm living in two parallel universes.

Unfortunately my situation is not that uncommon. I know of at least two other families where one working spouse had to leave the state on their own. A former co-worker of mine contemplated this move, but then his wife was laid-off from her job. This made the decision to leave Michigan a no brainer. The people skilled enough to find jobs are leaving the state in droves.

Sorry for the long post but I'm living first hand experience on how bad Michigan really is. I love my new job and the prospects that is has. I really miss my wife, my kids, and my basement shop.
 
Y


. Basically I'm a single/married guy with kids and my wife is now a single mom with a remote husband. It's like I'm living in two parallel universes.

Here in the NW and on other coasts it's called being a sailor. It's tough but it can work, I actually had a stronger relationship when I was at sea but that's another story that I won't be telling. I also know other sailors with very strong marriages but it's by far the exception. It's up to you but it can be done, good luck.
 
Gradstdnt_99, I do almost the same thing, and I am in central CA and have had a good job for years. For me, it was the difference between working at jobs that I had no interest in vs. working in Silicon Valley at startups and high tech companies, which I love. My wife is a school teacher in a small community south of San Jose, too far to commute, so I go home Thurs. night and spend Mon-Thurs. in San Jose, where I can work late hours & focus on my job. We both like the independence it gives us during the week.

-Dave
 
I have been to Detroit "the big D"? many times doing work at the auto plants. I always wondered how they stayed in business. The city is a dirty hole,You couldn't pay me enough to live in Detroit, I love the small town life and open country side.
 
To make matters worse the State legislature and Governor are having a pissing contest over the state budget. Many districts are losing big chunks of their school funding. Closing schools-interesting gambit.

Poor old Detroit has been in decline since the 50's- Criminal mayors, crumbling infrastructure-the works.

I was driving up Woodward Ave last week, disoriented at the post-apocalyptic feel of the place. I was going to swing by the Henry Ford Museum but left the area early-it was too depressing.

Greg
 
Buffalo is another great city that has gone far downhill. A variety of disasters, mostly political, have sunk the place.
 
I was driving up Woodward Ave last week, disoriented at the post-apocalyptic feel of the place. I was going to swing by the Henry Ford Museum but left the area early-it was too depressing.

Mark Knopfler saw a similar sight around 1980 when on tour. Song is about US24 from Toledo to Detroit.

Song

Wiki


--------------

Think Snow Eh!
Ox
 
craig, Youngstown is an "upper crust city" compared to East Liverpool, Ohio! I worked in East liverpool back in 2000 for 6 weeks, man what a DUMP. My wife and i would go to Youngstown to eat and see a movie
Greetings all;

First off, I am located near Youngstown Ohio which has been in a downward spiral since the early 80's. We haven't reached the bottom yet and I didn't think it could get any worse than here. In a nutshell, we are the armpit of Ohio, not the upper-crusters.

I had to go to Detroit today to pick up a few things. Man, it's real tough up there. I saw entire shopping plazas that had only one store open. I drove past one freight facility that had several huge buildings, each was posted as having 600,000 square foot available, not a single truck in the lot, anywhere! These are not the old World War 2 type structures, but very late model facilities in what should be the good part of town.

I could go on and on. Where is it all going to end? I came away from Detriot thinking what kind of future do they have? Saw on the news the other night Detriot city schools have a graduation rate of 32%. That's the rate it graduates, not the dropout rate! How does a city (or nation) survive this?

Just looking for hope and change, but how long can they wait? The people in Detriot probably have a real bleak forecast ahead.

Sorry if this is a rambling post, it really struck me knida' hard.

Craig Donges
 
It's not only Michigan. Places like Pennsylvania, Illinois, Kansas and wherever are similarly afflicted, I can't name all of the states I've been in where the inner cities are totally destroyed through unemployment, drugs, crime and the like.

Of all of the places I've ever been, East St. Louis, Illinois is at the bottom of the heap. It's like the slums in Sao Paulo, Braazil or Mumbay (Bombay), India. South Chicago, where I grew up, is nowhere you'd want to be after dark. I can only imagine what Detroit looks like. I haven't been there for many years.

If you were trying to make a living in one of those places, you would smply have to relocate. Anything would be better than living in a wasteland such as most major US cities.
 
There was an article in Business Week about a month ago about people ( out of town investors ) buying small (1000-1200 sq ft) houses for four digits. Spend another four digits on facial stuff (since they weren't broken, just abandoned) and have a rental unit to show for it.

And then I see where Chrysler is worse off than even Fiat thought.

Doesn't look good at all for the Motor City.
 
A while back, I lived a block off of Eight Mile (but the nicer, western part) and drove to work along Telegraph Road. Wouldn't go back for the world. I like Michigan as a state, but it feels like community has totally broken down. Downtown Detroit was a ghost town, and the people in the suburbs seemed to forget it was even there. A few managed to drive down the canyon-like freeways to Greektown once or twice a year.
 
My intent is not to turn this into a political discussion, but I recently read the folowing article on how Detroit came to be what it is today. This is from the October 28th issue of The Stansberry Investment Research newsletter. I found it very timely that Craig posted this topic and that I had recently read this article. It is still a discrace to our country that this has taken place. I remember going to Chicago to look at some machinery around 1986 and driving thru neighborhoods with upturned cars in the front yards and men huddled around trash fires burning in 55 gallon drums to stay warm in the march weather - - - - - .

Dan


USA: The new Detroit... Meet Jerome Cavanagh... A Model City... Casey on the War on Poverty... An area the size of Boston, vacant... More BSX bashing... Should you sell?...

One of the most important things to remember about socialism – or coercion of any kind – is it fails eventually because human beings have an innate desire for liberty and a strong need for personal property rights. In fact, the origins of government lie in the need of agricultural communities to protect themselves from violence and theft. So it is particularly ironic that in more recent times, it is government itself that has more frequently played the role of bandit. When you start taxing people at extreme rates to pay for socialist "benefits," when you start telling them which schools their children must attend, when you start giving jobs away to people based on race instead of ability... you quash human freedom, which bogs down productivity... and if continued for long enough, leads to social collapse.

I find it perplexing that only 20 years after the collapse of the Berlin Wall, the West continues to implement laws that mimic all of the failed policies of our former "communist" foes. In fact, our current president won the election by promising to "spread the wealth around." But... truth be told... we don't have to look to Eastern Europe or the Soviet Union to find a society destroyed by coercion, socialism, and the overreaching power of the State. We could just look at Detroit...

In 1961, the last Republican mayor of Detroit lost his re-election bid to a young, intelligent Democrat, with the overwhelming support of newly organized black voters. His name was Jerome Cavanagh. The incumbent was widely considered to be corrupt (and later served 10 years in prison for tax evasion). Cavanagh, a white man, pandered to poor underclass black voters. He marched with Martin Luther King down the streets of Detroit in 1963. (Of course, marching with King was the right thing to do... It's just Cavanagh's motives were political not moral.) He instated aggressive affirmative action policies at City Hall. And most critically, he greatly expanded the role of the government in Detroit, taking advantage of President Lyndon Johnson's "Model Cities Program" – the first great experiment in centralized urban planning.

Mayor Cavanagh was the only elected official to serve on Johnson's task force. And Detroit received widespread acclaim for its leadership in the program, which attempted to turn a nine-square-mile section of the city (with 134,000 inhabitants) into a "model city." More than $400 million was spent trying to turn inner cities into shining new monuments to government planning. In short, the feds and Democratic city mayors were soon telling people where to live, what to build, and what businesses to open or close. In return, the people received cash, training, education, and health care.

The Model Cities program was a disaster for Detroit. But it did accomplish its real goal: The creation of a state-supported, Democratic political power base. The program also resulted in much higher taxes – which were easy to pitch to poor voters who didn't have to pay them. Cavanagh pushed a new income tax through the state legislature and a "commuter tax" on city workers.

Unfortunately, as with all socialist programs, lots of folks simply don't like being told what to do. Lots of folks don't like being plundered by the government. They don't like losing their jobs because of their race.

In Detroit, they didn't like paying new, large taxes to fund a largely black and Democratic political hegemony. And so, in 1966, more than 22,000 middle- and upper-class residents moved out of the city.

But what about the poor? As my friend Doug Casey likes to say, in the War on Poverty, the poor lost the most. In July 1967, police attempted to break up a late-night party in the middle of the new "Model City." The scene turned into the worst race riot of the 1960s. The violence killed more than 40 people and left more than 5,000 people homeless. One of the first stores to be looted was the black-owned pharmacy. The largest black-owned clothing store in the city was also burned to the ground. Cavanagh did nothing to stop the riots, fearing a large police presence would make matters worse. Five days later, Johnson sent in two divisions of paratroopers to put down the insurrection. Over the next 18 months, an additional 140,000 upper- and middle-class residents – almost all of them white – left the city.

And so, you might rightfully ask... after five years of centralized planning, higher taxes, and a fleeing population, what did the government decide to do with its grand experiment, its "Model City"? You'll never guess....

Seeing it had accomplished nothing but failure, the government endeavored to do still more. The Model City program was expanded and enlarged by 1974's Community Development Block Grant Program. Here again, politicians would decide which groups (and even individuals) would receive state funds for various "renewal" schemes. Later, Big Business was brought into the fold. In exchange for various concessions, the Big Three automakers "gave" $488 million to the city for use in still more redevelopment schemes in the mid-1990s.

What happened? Even with all of their power and all of the money, centralized planners couldn't succeed with any of their plans. Nearly all of the upper and middle class left Detroit. The poor fled, too. The Model City area lost 63% of its population and 45% of its housing units from the inception of the program through 1990.

Even today, the crisis continues. At a recent auction of nearly 9,000 seized homes and lots, less than one-fifth of the available properties sold, even with bidding starting at $500. You literally can't give away most of the "Model City" areas today. The properties put up for sale last week represented an area the size of New York's Central Park. Total vacant land in Detroit now occupies an area the size of Boston – Detroit properties in foreclosure have more than tripled since 2007.

Every single mayor of Detroit since 1961 has been a Democrat. Every single mayor of Detroit since 1974 has been black. Detroit has been a major recipient of every major social program since the early 1960s and has received hundreds of billions of dollars in government grants, loans, and programs. We now have a black, Democrat president, who is promising to do to America as a whole what his political mentors have done to Detroit.

Those of you with a Democratic political affiliation may think what I've written above is biased or false. You may think what you like. But there is no way to argue that what the government has done to Detroit is anything but a horrendous crime. You may think what I've written above is merely a political analysis. Perhaps so, but politicians drive macroeconomic policy. And macroeconomic policy determines key financial metrics, like the trade-weighted value of a currency and key interest rates.

The likelihood America will become a giant Detroit is growing – rapidly. Politicians now control the banking sector, most of the manufacturing sector (including autos), a large amount of media, and are threatening to take over health care and the production of electricity (via cap and trade rules). These are the biggest threats to wealth in the history of our country. And these threats are causing the world's most accomplished and wealthy investors to actively short sell the United States – something that is unprecedented in my experience.
 
I could tell you about Utica NY, similar deal on a smaller scale. I moved there in 78, there were about 120K in the city, down a bit then. Sperry Univac and moved out, GE had closed a radio plant, etc. Now they are somewhere around 50,000 people and that is with 30,000 imigrants moving in for the cleap housing. Lots of Bosnians, Russians, Vietnaese, etc, they can buy a perfectly good house for 5 to 10,ooo and there are jobs. Without them, Utica would be down to 20,000? I have friends who bought a beautiful old house that an architect had redone, it was cheap enough but they figure they would not get half back out of it. It can get worse and worse, I have seen it, I suppose the whole city could become just like Rome in the middle ages, where it basically reverted back to farm land.
 
This thread was kinda iffy from the get go but you can thank Dan from Oakland for killing it completely.
 
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