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Die hobbing any one have experience doing this.

kpotter

Diamond
Joined
Apr 30, 2001
Location
tucson arizona usa
I have been making dies for almost 25 years, I dont know if I am doing it wrong. There are not many people left who still do it the old ways. I carve a master from o1 then heat treat it and I use a 500 ton clifton hobbing press to ram it into another block of soft tool steel. I then heat treat that block and put it back in the press and ram a block of hot tool steel into the female die to create a working male die. An old timer who still wont tell me shit said he has never watched anything so insane in his whole life. I have been doing this for years. I dont premachine the female die before plowing into it with the male die I dont heat it I do it cold. We make jewelry dies so its not rocket stuff or aerospace. The average die hits a couple hundred tons and we almost never have a failure. I have picked up a bunch of antique hobs and I have been using them the same way with no issues, they are not as massive as what I make but they hold up well. Am I doing this wrong.
 
No Kevin; you'e not doing this wrong.
Hobbing was once an accepted way of making mold cavities for plastic injection molds and what you describe is basically how it was done, except that only the first two steps (carving the plug and hobbing the female cavity) were required.
The proper measure of success with your method is whether you are satisfied with the result; you don't need anyone's approval.

So if you want to, you can tell Mr Nosey Parker to mind his own damn business and just let you succeed your own way.
I said so, and I'm just as much an authority as he is, so there!!:D

Cheers

Marcus
Implant Mechanix • Design & Innovation > HOME
www.vancouverwireedm.com
 
I have been making dies for almost 25 years, I dont know if I am doing it wrong. There are not many people left who still do it the old ways. I carve a master from o1 then heat treat it and I use a 500 ton clifton hobbing press to ram it into another block of soft tool steel. I then heat treat that block and put it back in the press and ram a block of hot tool steel into the female die to create a working male die. An old timer who still wont tell me shit said he has never watched anything so insane in his whole life. I have been doing this for years. I dont premachine the female die before plowing into it with the male die I dont heat it I do it cold. We make jewelry dies so its not rocket stuff or aerospace. The average die hits a couple hundred tons and we almost never have a failure. I have picked up a bunch of antique hobs and I have been using them the same way with no issues, they are not as massive as what I make but they hold up well. Am I doing this wrong.

There's only one question that matters ...

Is it working?

You say you've been doing this for 25 years now, and it IS working?

Sounds to me like YOU are the expert ...

Tell him to go suck eggs.
 
I was taught by guys who I didnt think knew what they were doing. I have realized over time that most stuff is trial and error. I was just hoping someone knew some magical bit of info that they would be willing to share. Most of these skills have not been written in books and they were kept secrete so they died with the craftsman. If anyone knows any body that has done this kind of work I would love to talk with them. I am on the opposite side of the country to where this stuff took place.
 
I would suspect YOU are the teacher. I have seen this done using brass. The slug is red hot and wham! there is a cavity in the brass. I would suspect that hot steel would work better than cold.

Just give up the old way and buy a die sinking edm. Make the old fart happy.

Tom
 
I know you're "hobbing" but that is the correct method to "shear in" a die as well. And yes, it is an old method, I helped make one as an apprentice then we got away from that method. For what you're doing with it and the success you're having, tell the old timer to piss off.
 
Hi again Kevin:
I have only ever hobbed one part myself in soft copper, so I am pretty inexperienced but I think there are some general principles you can use when you imagine what might or might not work.

First, is that the part volume does not change; all you do is displace the material around and your part is the same mass when it's finished as it was when you started.
So when you confine your part you need to allow enough room for the material to flow wherever it needs to in order to create the new shape but still confine it enough so the material has to flow where it might not want to so easily.
When all the available space in the confinement box is taken up, the pressure will escalate rapidly until something fails, and you can use this pressure curve to tell you when the metal is fully displaced.
Confining your part can be done in several ways:
- You could put it in a box
- You could make your blank big enough that the material thickness creates its own box.
You can see this at work when you do a simple letter or number stamp, the material flows locally up around the sides of the punch but the block retains its shape if it's big enough, (except for the raised metal immediately around the punch).

The second thing is flow, and you need to encourage it wherever possible.
I can think of a few ways; you may think of others too.
First is the quality and lay of the polish.
Finer is better.
Along flow lines is better than across them.

Next, radii are better than sharp corners.

Dissimilar materials are better than similar.

Tall vertical walls are bad

Displacing material into a cavity is harder than displacing it around a punch.

Lubricants are better than no lubricants but there are caveats like no combustible ones if you're displacing into a cavity (You will get "dieseling" in the cavity if your lubricant is combustible).

Shapes that trap material are bad, so a crosshatched surface is not as good as ones with parallel lines that material can flow along.

Small projected area requires lower pressure than large.

Ductile materials are easier than stiffer ones

The third principle is that you have to be able to get the parts apart again when you're done:
- Undercuts are bad
- Vertical walls are bad
- No means to pry or jack the parts apart is bad.

I believe all of this and everything else is empirical; you get better at it with experience, with observation and with imagination.
You appear to have all those qualities well in hand, so I'd keep doing what you're doing, try new things and imagine what's going to happen when you do.
To help you visualize, get yourself a big gob of Silly Putty and put it into a strong clear polycarbonate box so you can try out some things you might be unsure of and just watch what happens.
Get some dye too and make strands of different colours so you can watch the flow, or get some plasticene to play with when you're unsure if your design will work.
You'll be the GO-TO guy before you know it...in fact you probably already are!!

Cheers

Marcus
Implant Mechanix • Design & Innovation > HOME
www.vancouverwireedm.com
 
I remember seeing a few hobbed mold cavities, and asked the old-timers a few questions. Answers I remember are... The hobs were usually made from L-6, the cavities were usually made from P-6, and was later case hardened. Most of the cavities I saw had some relief machined in the back to aid material flow during hobbing.
 
Maybe next time the old fella opens his yap to complain about how you are doing things, hand him a broom.

If he asks what it's for, tell him it's to get something useful from him for a change.

If he doesn't know what he's talking about, he's wasting your time, if he knows, but won't tell, then he's wasting both your time.

In all honesty, the guys I have had the least respect for in my career, were the ones that disavowed any knowledge of a subject when asked, or especially, the ones that played the 'I've got a secret' game with that knowledge.

Cheers
Trev
 
I have seen this many places. Closed die hot forging of medical instrumen is one. Aluminum extrusion forming. Where a slug of aluminum is molded. Those dies were hobbed. The largest one I saw was the valve cover for a dodge truck engine. A customer of mine would 3 d pantograph the masters. I am pretty sure this is how oneida ltd made their silverware dies. Emblem makers did this also.
 
Sounds like the old timer just did an 'I gotcha'. You can do the same. My favorite is when I'm riding in a car and the driver stops for a yellow light. After they stop you say ' oh I'd have gone' ( not that I necessarily would have, but the look my wife gives me is worth a lot!!😈)
 
Kevin,

I would like to spend a day in your shop looking over your shoulder. Age and dialysis makes this an impossibility, so some videos of your shop and work would be super.

Jim
 
I have videos on youtube of me doing the process. They are not great but you get the idea. The press has bullet proof plexiglass on the window so it is not super easy to watch. I swear I must be one of the last people on the planet doing this. I have tried to find other people and all the people in my industry have moved on to edm and direct machineing of the mold cavaty without making a hob. I never learned any other way because this seems to work so well, and it is fast. check youtube on my channel I wish I knew how to put up a link. It is probably under kevin potter.
 
Utica metals may still do this. Schilling forge in syracuse also. One advantage is making multiple cavities. The extrusion forming of aluminum would blow out the larger dies on a regular basis and I am sure closed die forging has got to wear out dies quickly. The other place that did this was Kelsey Hayes and utica tools msking hand tools and turbine blades
 








 
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