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Does the journeyman apprentice program still exist?

rds6709

Aluminum
Joined
Sep 20, 2013
Location
Orland IN
I was asked to speak at the local high school on career day and talked about a couple of local

career centers that taught cnc machining, welding etc. and I mentioned years ago a lot of larger

shops offered a journeyman program that when completed you recieved a card that was accepted

everywhere as proof of been through the program and good chance you would be hired before someone else.

Then I was asked what do they have now and I said I'm not sure what they have. So what is availble for people

completing high school courses in machining then vocational college courses? It would seem a good idea to have levels

of expertise like levels 1-10 in turning, milling, welding, etc. which would give that person a change at the better jobs. RD
 
yes

I was asked to speak at the local high school on career day and talked about a couple of local

career centers that taught cnc machining, welding etc. and I mentioned years ago a lot of larger

shops offered a journeyman program that when completed you recieved a card that was accepted

everywhere as proof of been through the program and good chance you would be hired before someone else.

Then I was asked what do they have now and I said I'm not sure what they have. So what is availble for people

completing high school courses in machining then vocational college courses? It would seem a good idea to have levels

of expertise like levels 1-10 in turning, milling, welding, etc. which would give that person a change at the better jobs. RD
.
yes some companies still have apprentice programs but many now work with a local college so the program is recognized as a associate degree in machine tool technology or some other name than simply machinist. that way the college degree is more recognized, state wide or even throughout the USA
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i have a diploma and card from my apprentice program through a large company which i graduated in 1984. when i applied for a new job about 2 years ago one employment agency wanted the telephone number of the school. since my old company had their own school and the whole building was demolished 10 years ago and all the records were not digitized or even saved it was inconvenient to say the least. as my old company laid off or retired over 20,000 people over the past 20 years it was not hard to come up with references to verify what i said was true.
....... my point is a diploma and machinist card is not worth as much as at least 2 people willing to act as job references.
 
At least here in Northwest Indiana there are still apprenticeship programs being offered for machinists. The shop in which I used to work is currently sponsoring an apprentice. Also here the program is nationally recognized - upon completion you get a journeyman's card certified by the U.S. Dept. of Labor. Still got mine, laminated and in a frame, heh. Buried in a closet somewhere.
 
My young, what would you call him, 3rd cousin, my cousins g'son (?) works at a shop that is paying for his Apprenticeship program at the local CC. He has completed 2 years, while he still works 4 10s plus.

Whether you would consider that the equivalent of, say, a Westinghouse Apprenticeship, where it was a full 8,000 hrs of classroom and OJT, I couldn't say. I don''t think it is.

Some Apprenticeships are still available, I guess, I don't know whose, but are they actual 5 day a week jobs, or one day per week at CC? That ain't gonna hack it.

UNION Pipefitter, Boilermaker, Electrician, are they educational or OJT?

George

TomB

"my point is a diploma and machinist card is not worth as much as at least 2 people willing to act as job references."

In my own defense, I turned out to be a good employee, but I WAS referred to Westinghouse by an employee who got a 25 buck bounty for each referral who passed their tests.

References are not all that accurate as a gauge to who will or will not be a good employee. I have had good referrals from my employees who turned out not only worthless, but I quit the business because they sank to the level of the lazy employee. ""He won't keep up, why should I?" "This is the last job I will bid. I only stayed in this business because you needed some extra money. I was better off, made more when I was a loner, and I had to check everything you did to make sure you did it right. I QUIT!"
 
In your area there is the Indiana state council of machinists. Their website should have a list of participating employers. Out here, it's the machinist & aerospace workers union. My only experience is with the carpenters union. You show up at the hall & wait to be called out.
 
My young, what would you call him, 3rd cousin, my cousins g'son (?) works at a shop that is paying for his Apprenticeship program at the local CC. He has completed 2 years, while he still works 4 10s plus.

Whether you would consider that the equivalent of, say, a Westinghouse Apprenticeship, where it was a full 8,000 hrs of classroom and OJT, I couldn't say. I don''t think it is.

Some Apprenticeships are still available, I guess, I don't know whose, but are they actual 5 day a week jobs, or one day per week at CC? That ain't gonna hack it.

UNION Pipefitter, Boilermaker, Electrician, are they educational or OJT?

George

TomB

"my point is a diploma and machinist card is not worth as much as at least 2 people willing to act as job references."

In my own defense, I turned out to be a good employee, but I WAS referred to Westinghouse by an employee who got a 25 buck bounty for each referral who passed their tests.

References are not all that accurate as a gauge to who will or will not be a good employee. I have had good referrals from my employees who turned out not only worthless, but I quit the business because they sank to the level of the lazy employee. ""He won't keep up, why should I?" "This is the last job I will bid. I only stayed in this business because you needed some extra money. I was better off, made more when I was a loner, and I had to check everything you did to make sure you did it right. I QUIT!"
.
my point was in the computer age when anybody can create a diploma and where big companies demolish their own schools over the years there is no telephone number of somebody to call the school and verify a diploma.
...... you hope and expect a school to be there 30 years later but things change and even schools get demolished and records are sometimes lost.
 
We've been discussing the merits at school. It seems that most places around here are past the journeyman's card and just want experience.

It appears, from my new outlook, that true machinists are very hard to find. Anything more than a rotary table or simple one angle setup looks to be done on CNC these days, whether it's a dedicated CNC or a conversational Bridgeport style. Almost as if technology has killed the need in a majority of situations.

I think we are getting into the first generation of non-journeyman recruiting and not seeing the value.
 
We've been discussing the merits at school. It seems that most places around here are past the journeyman's card and just want experience.

It appears, from my new outlook, that true machinists are very hard to find. Anything more than a rotary table or simple one angle setup looks to be done on CNC these days, whether it's a dedicated CNC or a conversational Bridgeport style. Almost as if technology has killed the need in a majority of situations.

I think we are getting into the first generation of non-journeyman recruiting and not seeing the value.
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technology is changing fast. many places want you to have experience with specific cnc machines. just cause someone can run a Haas CNC does not mean they can just walk up and run a Mazak or a Prototrak
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with a cnc machine 99% of the time you can do it faster, more accurate, than manual machining. if i got a 5 ton casting and i want to create bore of 3.000 +/- .001 it can usually be programmed in minutes and then done in maybe 10 minutes. arc, circular milling, straight line milling at angles take literally and often 1/10 the time.
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a machinist diploma and card is a start but a new employee needs to
1) being able to learn a new cnc machine quickly (adapt quickly to change)
2) having references to call to verify somebodys resume was not full of untruthful things is usually needed
3) being able to take and pass a hair drug test. hair test can show drug use going back months
 
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technology is changing fast. many places want you to have experience with specific cnc machines. just cause someone can run a Haas CNC does not mean they can just walk up and run a Mazak or a Prototrak

3) being able to take and pass a hair drug test. hair test can show drug use going back months


I have changed the way my resume is structured. At the very top, taking up nearly 1/3 of the page. I put The names of all of the Machine Types I have/can run. HAAS, MAZAK, DMG/MORI SEIKI, MAKINO, OKUMA. And then under them the specific types. I have found that my resume just needs to get me past the chick at the front desk so I can talk to the supervisor who isn't going to really care about that piece of paper. But is going to walk me through the shop and see how I interact with the machines. Because the HR/front desk chick doesn't know anything about machining, but she's seen those names on their machines. It's worked pretty well so far.


I've yet to be at or hear of a shop around here that actually drug tests. Unless there is a work related accident/injury. I have had HR people sit me down and go "look, I don't care what you do at home. Just don't show up high or drunk". Still have people around here who smoke the wacky tabacky on lunch or before work. But they are all deburr/janitor/part cleaners. Not Machinists.
 
At least here in Northwest Indiana there are still apprenticeship programs being offered for machinists. The shop in which I used to work is currently sponsoring an apprentice. Also here the program is nationally recognized - upon completion you get a journeyman's card certified by the U.S. Dept. of Labor. Still got mine, laminated and in a frame, heh. Buried in a closet somewhere.

I am curious to the last time this information was checked? I am from the northern part of IN and I took an apprenticeship thru a die shop. I went to night classes for 4 years and had to have 8000 hours on the job training as well. I received a cert from the US Dept of Labor and 1 from the school. Anyways, I heard that particular school was the only one offering the course and they quit a few years after I graduated for lack of interest or funds or whatever, this would have been around 2000-2002 ish. Has something else been started in the area? I have been led to believe this is a dying trade and there aren't too many schools left teaching, or working with the machine shops....
 
It appears that the career center in my area has been given some nice cnc lathes and a

maching center so that when they complete the high school course they have the basics in the

machines that the local industry needs because they were the ones who donated the equipment.

I don't think it matters whether you learn mauel or cnc as long as you can find employment in your chosen field.

I was worried for a while we would lose maufacturing base and knowledge and not replace it. But I think things

are getting better about on the job training even if its a different world than years ago. I was thinking we're shipping everything

overseas and not be able to get it back for losing the old timers who could train the newbys coming along RD
 
I am curious to the last time this information was checked? I am from the northern part of IN and I took an apprenticeship thru a die shop. I went to night classes for 4 years and had to have 8000 hours on the job training as well. I received a cert from the US Dept of Labor and 1 from the school. Anyways, I heard that particular school was the only one offering the course and they quit a few years after I graduated for lack of interest or funds or whatever, this would have been around 2000-2002 ish. Has something else been started in the area? I have been led to believe this is a dying trade and there aren't too many schools left teaching, or working with the machine shops....

They most certainly weren't the only operating program. I know there was a program in East Chicago at that time but I believe it is now defunct. Both the program I went through and the current one offer certificates from the U.S. Dept. of Labor and the program itself. The one I went through required 8,320 hours, not sure about the current one but I'm sure it's at least 8,000.

The info I posted earlier is current. I was just there talking to them the other day. The program is in Porter County:

COLLEGES AND TECHNICAL SCHOOLS IN OUR AREA
 
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I have changed the way my resume is structured. At the very top, taking up nearly 1/3 of the page. I put The names of all of the Machine Types I have/can run. HAAS, MAZAK, DMG/MORI SEIKI, MAKINO, OKUMA. And then under them the specific types. I have found that my resume just needs to get me past the chick at the front desk so I can talk to the supervisor who isn't going to really care about that piece of paper. But is going to walk me through the shop and see how I interact with the machines. Because the HR/front desk chick doesn't know anything about machining, but she's seen those names on their machines. It's worked pretty well so far.


I've yet to be at or hear of a shop around here that actually drug tests. Unless there is a work related accident/injury. I have had HR people sit me down and go "look, I don't care what you do at home. Just don't show up high or drunk". Still have people around here who smoke the wacky tabacky on lunch or before work. But they are all deburr/janitor/part cleaners. Not Machinists.
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i tend to be not too specific on cnc machines, if i ran a Fanuc 15 machine and they have a different Fanuc control often that will go against you, sometimes it is better to be more generic unless you have run exactly the machines they are looking for. Nothing like a place wanting people with Mastercam X6 experience when the last version i used was X2. Sometimes they won't even bother giving somebody a chance to learn a newer version.
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last job i applied to less than 2 years ago it was conditional on me passing a drug test and a eye test. they use this so to not waste time hiring people with drug problems and or people who do not bother getting glasses so they can read a eye chart both 10" away and 10 feet away. like who really would want to hire either
 
eKretz- Thanks for the heads up. I took mine in Elkhart county. The reason I asked was in my 2nd year of the program we had 2 guys transfer in from Ivy tech or something like that because the classes they were taking were not recognized by the state or something. I don't know all the details except they had to re-take their first year to get the cert from the DoL.
 
No prob. It's good that those guys were able to find a program with DoL certs - they definitely carry more weight than a company cert in my experience.
 
I have a machinist and a drafting card that are Federal cards. Think big employer in Central IN. There are other trades here too. I think since the early 90's some places have been opening up their aprenticships again. The company I work for hires from various source from local HS, some colleges and other sources.
Tom
 
Ok, I'm up in Canada so it is a different ball of wax, but every province has a trade board and does apprenticeships... but at the end of your 4 periods you can take a "interprovincial" exam or Red Seal Exam if you are in a recognized trade and have certification as a journeyman that is good across a majority of Canada. Not sure about Quebec, they do things differently.
 
We've been discussing the merits at school. It seems that most places around here are past the journeyman's card and just want experience.

Ive heard from probably a half dozen shop owners in the past few years that journeymen's cards arent worth the paper anymore bc of the large unions granting them to everyone who can read a ruler. At least IME, many today seem to look for education from particular schools and experience in shops they are familiar with, along with the usual ability to be on-time, ready, and willing.

Disclaimer - Not a machinist but an engineer for a large corporation who gets around to quite a few shops every year.
 
Ive heard from probably a half dozen shop owners in the past few years that journeymen's cards arent worth the paper anymore bc of the large unions granting them to everyone who can read a ruler. At least IME, many today seem to look for education from particular schools and experience in shops they are familiar with, along with the usual ability to be on-time, ready, and willing.

Disclaimer - Not a machinist but an engineer for a large corporation who gets around to quite a few shops every year.
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machinist diploma and card helps but most companies want to call a reference or 2 to verify what is being said on the resume
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plus most places hire conditionally that is after 1 to 3 months a decision is made if that person is worth keeping. you may or may not have a machinist diploma or card but if you cannot produce the results or make good parts on time and within budget you will not keep the job.
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i value my old companies machinist training but it would have been nice if they tried to get it nationally recognized to some sort of national standard and bothered to keep records for their employees maybe finding their next job maybe 30 years later
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trouble is a big company with over 30,000 employes locally (over 100,000 world wide) can in 30 years be down below 5000 employees. nobody 30 years ago figured such a big company would less than 1/10 the size in 30 years with dozens of buildings being demolished
 








 
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