Drilling copper tube

Fred V · Aug 15, 2017

I have a new radiator in a vintage Morgan 3 wheeler. The tubes are 1/4" with fins for cooling. The problem is that the tube wall is .032 and it should be maybe half that: .010" to .015" wall thickness.

If I were to take the bottom off this rad. would it be possible to use gun drills or ?? and ream the tubes out to a larger ID.

Here are some pix of the rad.

Fred V

CalG · Aug 15, 2017

no, that will not be possible.

L Vanice · Aug 15, 2017

CalG said:
no, that will not be possible.

I won't say it can't be done, but it seems like a silly idea unless you are anxious to buy another new radiator.

Larry

Tony Quiring · Aug 15, 2017

Someone built it and with thicker wall tubes more heavy duty.

You could count the tubes and determine volume of both sizes but you likely will be fine as is...what motor and how many hp?

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tdmidget · Aug 15, 2017

Weren't Moggie 3 wheelers all powered by air cooled motorcycle engines? Anzani and JAP mostly?

MattiJ · Aug 16, 2017

I would check to make sure that its not just a nasty burr at the end of the pipes. That would be easily fixed with drill/countersunk or any other sharp object.

Limy Sami · Aug 16, 2017

tdmidget said:
Weren't Moggie 3 wheelers all powered by air cooled motorcycle engines? Anzani and JAP mostly?

Nope - both water and air cooled

REF Engines as fitted by Morgan Motor Company – The Morgan Three Wheeler Club

To the OP, ...before I started on the rad I'd go back to basics, ...is the engine running too hot due to 1 - Thermostat (if fitted) 2 -mixture (too lean) 3 - ignition timing (too retarded runs hot) 4 - water pump (if fitted) 5 - airlock in the pipework. 6 - restricted or collapsed hoses. 7 - waterways in the engine itself clagged up or corroded etc etc,

WHY? the difference between a 1/4'' tube , with a 0.015 wall = 0.220 bore, (0.038 sq'') .....and a 0.032 wall = 0.186 bore, (0.027 sq'') .....about 25% reduction is not that much in flow terms, and a radiator works on surface area, ...yes it has to carry enough water, .....but I'd be very surprised if the original radiator was that borderline.

Another thought, was any form of liquid etc engine block and radiator sealant ''gloop'' used when say the old rad was leaking? ........if so that stuff can block old clagged up waterways.

Sea Farmer · Aug 16, 2017

Listen to Sami. He's the smartest foreign person I know

Limy Sami · Aug 16, 2017

Sea Farmer said:
Listen to Sami. He's the smartest foreign person I know

You really should widen your circle / get out more

Hodge · Aug 16, 2017

Sami nailed it in a most succinct fashion!!

Fred V · Aug 16, 2017

L Vanice said:
I won't say it can't be done, but it seems like a silly idea unless you are anxious to buy another new radiator.

Larry

Thanks to all for the replies.
I've been a home machinist for 40+ years and have worked copper but I know it is hard to work with being so gummy. A normal drill would drift and cut through the wall but I am unfamiliar with gun drills. They look like they would guide themselves better.

Any way the engine is a Matchless side valve and has new cylinders and heads. It is in proper tune but at 45 it starts to over heat which is a known issue with this engine. I felt like the thick wall tubes are restricting the thermo siphon as well as not getting the heat transfer that a thinner wall would provide. My options are to get the proper tubes from the UK or add an additional radiator or circulation pump and or cooling fan.

Limy Sami · Aug 16, 2017

Thanks Fred - yes the WC Matchless Morgans were sods for over heating, ...........personally I'd go the waterpump route - especially in a warm climate.

here's an inline one that comes to mind AP-851: aquaplane water pump - Cooling System - Classic Ford Parts | Small Ford Spares

tdmidget · Aug 16, 2017

Along the same line, sorta, A few years ago a poster here was building a replica with a Moto Guzzi engine. Any know who or how that turned out?

Chip Chester · Aug 16, 2017

Newer Morgans offer an "urban cooling kit" as an option. Anything useable to improve your cooling issues?

I don't know if you're in the purist camp (probably) but since you're looking to use the vehicle in a decidedly non-British climate, you might consider the secondary radiator route. Either stack a similar one behind the first one, or go with a more generic aluminum device hidden behind it. Mounting an aux radiator underneath with some air diverter/ducting may also work. With problems arising above 45mph, an aux electric fan is probably not the solution, unless it's airflow-related instead of engine-power-related.

I'm a Sunbeam owner myself, and a common upgrade is to have the original radiator re-cored to three rows instead of the original two. I realize you just bought this one (or had it made) but perhaps you could sell it on to a fellow owner in a cooler climate...

Chip

Limy Sami · Aug 16, 2017

Some notes on thermo syphon hot water systems.

Both the radiator / heat emitter connections should be above their respective connections on the heat source (engine) especially the flow (hot or top hose).
The return cold or bottom hose connection on the radiator SHOULD also be higher than the engine connection, ....both pipes should rise away from the heat source, without any dips etc etc.

HOWEVER you can ''jump up'' the return pipe at the heat source, and with enough head above it will work, but only after a fashion - namely only after the flow (top hose) has got to boiling point which will ''push it round'' making the thermos syphon work.

Largest bore possible pipework will also help create a thermos syphon, therefore ma the cooling system work.

Like with a lot of so called ''rule'' there are exceptions, but ((9.99% of the time) efficiency does suffer.

A thought on the radiator, ...make sure there's adequate air flow both sides of the core, ......it's no use ramming air in via a duct etc etc if it's got no where to go! .......and as hot air naturally rises, it has to be forced downwards.

jim rozen · Aug 16, 2017

I always thought a honda CX-500 motor would be ideal for a morgan three wheel replica. Comes with its own
radiator, water pump, electrical system etc.

The real key to keeping one of these from overheating would be to put a small radiator core in the passenger
compartment, backed up by a small electric fan. Then run the thing in the wintertime in NY!

Tony Quiring · Aug 17, 2017

Side step to the heat exchangers used by Ericsson where they look like a normal hvac unit in that they have a condenser and evaporator with fans on both to move air but missing is a compressor.

Charged with R134 and if they get the least amount of dirt to block air flow worthless.

Similar action on your engine in that without water pump to force water flow it uses normal physics to have natural flow.

Maybe back in the day cost or other reasons not to add water pump but it seems adding a 12 volt powered pump someplace in the plumbing where out of site then add temperature control to allow better warm up and consistent operating temperature.

Forget about modifying the radiator as the tube size may have been a what was available thing but enlarging would be little if any gain and way too risky.

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CalG · Aug 17, 2017

Limy Sami · Aug 18, 2017

That looks neat Cal, .I didn't know they made them.

Chip Chester · Aug 18, 2017

Does this mean it doesn't have a water pump?

Stewart Components E389A-BK14: In-Line Electric Water Pump 1-1/4" slip-on fittings | JEGS

If so, like Cal's thought, but with large inlet/outlet connections and it looks like enough of it is plastic to get around positive/negative ground issues. Engine-agnostic -- just hose in and out plus power.
Small, light, 8A draw, 55gpm flow. You'll still need air flow and heat transfer, but with this you can make sure the coolant is circulating well at all engine speeds, or you can get aux. radiator placement flexibility.
Not the cheapest thing in the world, but less than a head gasket job, or worse...

Chip

Drilling copper tube

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