Drilling with ER collet chucks vs Drill Chucks

ThisIsShopLife · Apr 22, 2018

Just wondering how you guys prefer to hold drills in a VMC. I know it probably varies widely depending on application and there would be pros & cons with each method (run-out, rigidity , etc. come to mind).....

Thanks!

Milland · Apr 22, 2018

I like to keep common drills in ER collets (tap drills, etc.), but still use high quality drill chucks for other sizes, up to 3/8". Over 3/8" it's ER only for stability and accuracy, and reducing overall length.

Larry Dickman · Apr 22, 2018

ER collets work great. Our shop has not one drill chuck. There's no reason for them.

Finegrain · Apr 22, 2018

ER32, 16, and 11 collects. I don't even have a drill chuck for my VMC.

Many of the small drills I use are 1/8" shank so there is much less rigidity or run out concern than if you try to hold a tiny shank in a collet.

Also most drills 3/8: and under are OSG EX-Gold which have oversize and nominal inch or metric shanks, like 6mm shank for a 5.75mm drill, so again I can use the exact collet size and not wordy about how well the collet is holding down at the lower limit of its range.

I did end up getting some 9/64" ER16 collet for the various small taps that have .140" shanks.

As an aside, who the h__l came up with tap shank sizes? They're all over the place, and few of them are a fractional inch or metric.

Regards.

Mike

DavidScott · Apr 22, 2018

ER collets for any production, drill chucks for quick tool changes, and sidelocks for some larger drills. I found out a long time ago I could increase feeds quite a bit with ER collets vs drill chucks.

Shop Supply Guru · Apr 22, 2018

Finegrain said:
ER32, 16, and 11 collects. I don't even have a drill chuck for my VMC.

Many of the small drills I use are 1/8" shank so there is much less rigidity or run out concern than if you try to hold a tiny shank in a collet.

Also most drills 3/8: and under are OSG EX-Gold which have oversize and nominal inch or metric shanks, like 6mm shank for a 5.75mm drill, so again I can use the exact collet size and not wordy about how well the collet is holding down at the lower limit of its range.

I did end up getting some 9/64" ER16 collet for the various small taps that have .140" shanks.

As an aside, who the h__l came up with tap shank sizes? They're all over the place, and few of them are a fractional inch or metric.

Regards.

Mike

I know! you know what's ridiculous is that the 1/2" shank and square are smaller than 3/8" :nutter:

L Vanice · Apr 22, 2018

Shop Supply Guru said:
I know! you know what's ridiculous is that the 1/2" shank and square are smaller than 3/8"

Here is a nice chart from the Hardinge catalog with USA tap shanks and squares in decimal inch and mm. Hardinge TT collets are made in these sizes to fit a Hardinge releasing tap holder for their turret lathes. The collets have a square hole for the tap and a slot for a 1/8" round drive pin in the chuck body, so they cannot slip.

I suppose ER collets can fit such odd shank sizes easily enough, but will the larger taps tend to slip?.

Larry

adama · Apr 22, 2018

Done up tight M24 in a ER32 in mild steel at txt book tapping drill sizes are no issue in a std collet.

As to drills, i prefer ER collets these days, but i do have a bunch of DA180's that came with my mill, there shit for milling, but do just fine with drill bits.

thermite · Apr 22, 2018

ThisIsShopLife said:
Just wondering how you guys prefer to hold drills in a VMC. I know it probably varies widely depending on application and there would be pros & cons with each method (run-out, rigidity , etc. come to mind).....

Thanks!

No VMC here. Plenty of ER. But... just took in the start of a TG-100 outlay. MariTool, CAT 40. Lovely bit of kit. There are smaller (and larger) TG, just as with ER.

TG. AKA "Tight Grip", does grip tighter than ER. Standard collets run but half the collapse range, but how many sizes see actual use, any given year?

There are limited-collapse problem-solver collets for both families as well.

Might be worth adding TG to your "short list" to at least compare with ER?

Carbide drill shanks, I think I'm going to prefer the TG.

Mind, a "short list" can turn into a slippery slope.

DA is not the only alternative as has proven its value for drilling or tapping!

DMF_TomB · Apr 23, 2018

ThisIsShopLife said:
Just wondering how you guys prefer to hold drills in a VMC. I know it probably varies widely depending on application and there would be pros & cons with each method (run-out, rigidity , etc. come to mind).....

Thanks!

.
some shops use set screw tool holders and drill bit has weldon flat on it. why ? cause no way going to slip very far if screw captured on the weldon flat. long drill usually has runout even with collet holder so set screw holder usually not any worse.
.
when drill slips in collet and drilled hole not deep enough taps and reamers usually break often causing considerable time and expense on expensive parts.
.
also why end mills especially used for roughing are often still held with set screws on a weldon flat. i have seen end mills get pushed further in and worse have seen end mills pull themselves too deep into a part which can scrap a expensive part.

NAST555 · Apr 23, 2018

For drills, both. Whatever I have available. I have 4 integrated BT40 drill chuck (I've found that their runout is loads better than trying to get one in a morse taper holder so gave up on that) and a crap load of ER32 AND 25 holders. I also pick up the closest chuck to use for my finger dial indicator.

Adama... It's interesting that you said M24 in a Er32. Never had the balls to try that. Everything over M16 (I put those in plain old er's without any issue) I put in sidelock holders. I know some folks might give me crap for that but I've never had an issue with them. A quick flat grind on the tap shank and good to go. But yeah, that's if you have a sidelock holder to suit as pointed out above... Ever thought why the standard shank on a M12 is 9mm but M10 is 10mm????

PegroProX440 · Apr 25, 2018

The only thing I would use drill chucks for is reamers. I can put an indicator on them and get them running pretty close to perfect in a drill chuck with some light tapping. Everything else in ER32 or 16.

ThisIsShopLife · Apr 30, 2018

Thank you everyone for the feedback. Another question: Is an SK collet system worth the extra $$$ over an ER collet system. The machine I have been put in charge of tooling up is a DMG MORI CMX 1100 V w/ a 12000 rpm spindle. I would like to put tooling on this machine that will complement the capabilities of it.

DMF_TomB · Apr 30, 2018

ER collets tends to be bigger diameter than TG or other type collets.
.
just saying often setscrew holder used as tool holder at drill shank is minimum bigger dia usually especially compared to ER collet holder

rklopp · Apr 30, 2018

DMF_TomB said:
ER collets tends to be bigger diameter than TG or other type collets.
.
just saying often setscrew holder used as tool holder at drill shank is minimum bigger dia usually especially compared to ER collet holder

I suppose TG collets might be smaller diameter than ER of the same size, but TG nuts are absolutely huge.

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thermite · Apr 30, 2018

ThisIsShopLife said:
Thank you everyone for the feedback. Another question: Is an SK collet system worth the extra $$$ over an ER collet system. The machine I have been put in charge of tooling up is a DMG MORI CMX 1100 V w/ a 12000 rpm spindle. I would like to put tooling on this machine that will complement the capabilities of it.

Could be. "We" don't know the tasking. You may not yet know it either. But "could be..."

Not the average home shop garage-floor-holder-downer, here. That critter is meant to run hard and generate coin. Do not cripple that capability.

Cheat. Stack the deck. Give it as much advantage as budget allows so it can replenish said budget sooner. And more than that. Turn a profit as well as parts.

Frank explains the differences here:

SK Collets - MariTool

Made - to a rather high standard - in USA can become one of those advantages, BTW.
ER, TG,... or SK.

DMF_TomB · Apr 30, 2018

rklopp said:
I suppose TG collets might be smaller diameter than ER of the same size, but TG nuts are absolutely huge.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

.
.
TG nuts smaller but of course depends on collet size. i had ER-40 tool holder on a machine cause it held up to 1" dia but nut was like 2.2" dia or close to it
.
ER-16 with max 3/8 capacity i have seen nuts close to 1" dia. plenty of TG with collet nuts smaller like 0.5 or 0.75 dia.....there are also DA collets

Danny VanVoorn · Apr 30, 2018

I'm convinced there is no one system that is the "holy grail", all it takes is one situation to change ones mind. It may be a small deep pocket or something similar that needs a small radius and the wall Keller milled to a profile to have to resort to something besides the usual suspects. Before one knows it the budgets broke the bank trying to order the proper cutting tool to fit the holder in hand. I've seen it first hand and even with a large government contractors deep pockets and complete capability to make cutters from scratch some of the old "stand by" tool holders would come into play.
I'm long out of the everyday work force but have a little bit of everything on hand in my work shop just in case. Dedicated collet chucks may be a good start but good to remember that 1/2" and 3/4" straight collet chucks fit right in their bigger brothers and can open up a world of solutions.
Dan

DMF_TomB · Apr 30, 2018

i have seen a lot of ER collets slip or not hold on to tool. especially if you got drill near max like 3/8 drill in ER16 collet
.
set screw holder not perfect but never seen one allow drill to spin if its got a proper weldon flat on it.

thermite · Apr 30, 2018

Danny VanVoorn said:
I'm convinced there is no one system that is the "holy grail", all it takes is one situation to change ones mind.

or even you lot on PM, and "at a distance"

I'm long out of the everyday work force but have a little bit of everything on hand in my work shop just in case. Dedicated collet chucks may be a good start but good to remember that 1/2" and 3/4" straight collet chucks fit right in their bigger brothers and can open up a world of solutions.
Dan

No sooner started adding Maritool TG than you agitators on PM have me wanting to add SK as well..

I need to get that leg healed and get TF away from this damned keyboard before online ordering convenience parcels me out and ships me over to the poorhouse in chunks cut to fit USPS "Flat Rate Box" sizes!

Drilling with ER collet chucks vs Drill Chucks

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