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Gears on Clausing-colchester lathe messed up. How to fix???

abadsvt

Plastic
Joined
Mar 23, 2018
Hi guys. I bought this 13x40 clausing-colchester at an auction. I was stoked because of the reviews i have read about these machines. I think this is the master 2500 series. Once i got it all wired up i noticed that when i changed the gear speed it never really changed the spindle speed. So i opened up the top cover and was bummed instantly. There is a couple gears all chewed up. I have attached pics. Do they still sell these gears? How do i remove the gear shafts to replace the gears? I see covers that hold the gear shafts in but wasn't sure if there was any special tricks or things i need to pay attention to before removing? Appreciate the help!

Josh20180415_151849.jpg20180415_151942.jpg20180415_151905.jpg20180415_151855.jpg20180415_152532.jpg
 
Here is a picture of the lathe. I have the top cover and side cover off obvisouly. Is this the 2500 Master model? Thx
20180415_153445.jpg
 
I've been involved in similar repairs over the years over here in the UK. That's really a " Colchester " lathe, it's just badged " Clausing-Colchester ". In the early days we used " Colchester " for spare parts but I came across " Nobilla " in Stevenage in the UK.

They buy and sell used " Colchester " lathes and carry a pretty extensive range of spare parts in stock. Some lathes they buy and strip down solely for spares. I've bought new gears from them but some customers aren't prepared to pay that sort of money so I've bought used gears from them.

I think their service and prices are pretty good.

Looking at the amount and type of damage involved I'd be hoping that no debris has got into the main spindle bearings. In that case you really would be talking about big bucks.

I've always found " Colchester" lathes relatively easy to take apart. You don't kneed any special tools although some good cranked circlip pliers and a slide hammer are very useful.

Regards Tyrone.
 
Bummer! Was it a consignment auction or a complete shop closure auction? What'd you pay?

Even if unpowered, it sounds like this problem may have been noticed if you had manually engaged each speed and rotated the spindle or drive belt. It is a tedious task, along with checking every threading and feed rate, but ya know...

I called Clausing in Kalamazoo last summer for info on an 8000 series I was considering. They were very helpful and may be able to send you a service manual.

Before tearing it apart into a pile of pieces, I would have a pretty good idea of the obvious damage and how you'll get parts.. and what they will cost. But as mentioned, there may be more damage beyond the obvious. Have you tried fishing a magnet on a stick in there to see what comes out? How's the spindle feel when completely disengaged?

Another option might be to complete the "conversion" to single speed and run it on a VFD. You probably have some gearbox flushing and deburring in your future. With some luck maybe that will work out.
 
Thanks guys for the help. I did contact Frank at FDK3CO and he was super helpful. I am going to order a manual from him so i can take the gears out of the machine to make sure there isn't any other gears messed up.

Frank has some used parts but he wants 900 each gear. So there is 2 gears and a rod that is messed up. So the total would be $2700. I like the guy but this seems high for 2 gears and the gear rod (don't know technical name). Does anyone else have an idea where to buy these parts?

I bought the lathe at an auction for $4500 which i thought was fair for a working machine. Now if i have to buy those parts im gonna be right under 7k which i could have bought a machine with more tooling or something. Bumming big time.
 
Did you try Colchester?

I have no personal knowledge, but, "anecdotally" eg: "Right here on PM", Colchester - or present-day owners:

Colchester Machine Tool Solutions spares enquiry - Colchester Machine Tool Solutions

,,have typically been reported as more expensive sources than:

Lathe Parts

..who are authorized dealers, AND ALSO traffic in used-but-still-serviceable parts.

I doubt 600 Group "does" used at all, so..

That said? Straight-cut involute spur gears, here, no? Not Helical or Herringbone.
Those can be DIY made.

Tedious as all-get-out, but no rocket insemination required. Old gear is even partially good, it can be made into an indexer, reducing risk of error, and bypassing need of even more slow-moving tedium serving the needs of a Dividing Head.

Seems they call them "Dividing Heads", BTW for their solid reliability at generating splitting headaches.

:)

Sometimes.. a "stock" gear can be used, nearly always modified as to bore and face-width, seldom directly.
If the need of cutting teeth can be avoided, the modifications are usually Machining 201 if nor merely 101.
 
Its an eye opener all right.......but if the head gears are wrecked,what about the feed gearbox.IMHO,feed gears in a Colchester are small and easily damaged or broken. As to stock gears,these machines have apparently standard 20deg/pa. DP teeth,but with different numbers of teeth to a standard gear of the same diameter.....$800 a gear is unbelievable.If such prices are achievable,it would be worth tooling up to cut relacement gears......there s plenty of small Colchesters with damaged teeth.
 
Thanks guys for the help. I did contact Frank at FDK3CO and he was super helpful. I am going to order a manual from him so i can take the gears out of the machine to make sure there isn't any other gears messed up.

Frank has some used parts but he wants 900 each gear. So there is 2 gears and a rod that is messed up. So the total would be $2700. I like the guy but this seems high for 2 gears and the gear rod (don't know technical name). Does anyone else have an idea where to buy these parts?

I bought the lathe at an auction for $4500 which i thought was fair for a working machine. Now if i have to buy those parts im gonna be right under 7k which i could have bought a machine with more tooling or something. Bumming big time.

As I mentioned earlier, give " Nobilla " in the UK a call. I'd be surprised if they want that sort of money. Having said that spare parts are getting to ridiculous prices.

" Sachmanram " is going through a similar repair in another thread. He's bought some standard gears and he's modifying existing undamaged clusters to take the new gears. That repair demands a fair amount of machining skill and knowledge though. Plus access to a working lathe unfortunately.

I take it the " rod " is what we call a " shaft " or over here in this circumstance a " line ".

Regards Tyrone.
 
Its an eye opener all right.......but if the head gears are wrecked,what about the feed gearbox.IMHO,feed gears in a Colchester are small and easily damaged or broken. As to stock gears,these machines have apparently standard 20deg/pa. DP teeth,but with different numbers of teeth to a standard gear of the same diameter.....$800 a gear is unbelievable.If such prices are achievable,it would be worth tooling up to cut relacement gears......there s plenty of small Colchesters with damaged teeth.

It's getting to the stage now where you can buy another working pre-owned lathe for the price of a couple of gears you can hold in your hand plus a shaft.

I remember pricing up a pair of small bevel gears for the mechanism that hand wound out the spindle on a 3" Hor Bore spindle. One had about 12 teeth on it and you could have carried around on your little finger. The other one was about has big as a saucer for a tea cup and had about 50 teeth.

The people who took over the rights for " Kearns-Richards " spares quoted something like £ 375.75p for the small gear and £ 624.25p for the bigger gear. In other words exactly £1,000 for the two gears and 4 weeks delivery.

I told them " Thanks but no thanks "

Regards Tyrone.
 
.. would be worth tooling up to cut relacement gears......there s plenty of small Colchesters with damaged teeth.

The REAL barrier to that .. is too small and too "irregular" a market.

Most folk as have these gear problems (Colchester doesn't actually hold a patent on it..) don't just balk at $800+. They don't really want to spend $400, and will work-around the problem one way or another procrastinating over spending even $200-$300 (or the UK, Canadian, Aus, etc equivalent).

Whomever tools-up for making new might see four sets sold one whole year, go a full year and a half before two more sets are ordered, and know that it is a declining market even then, best-case. Because .... each passing year a few more potentially needful lathes are parted-out or outright scrapped.

Then, too, many of the remaining "holders" are hobbyists/retirees. Not uncommon for some among us to fab a few gears "the hard way". Never mind the "economics" of that being borderline insane - we were going to make "something" in our so-called "free labour spare time" anyway. Each DIY - or even mod to "stock" gears - takes one more potential order out of an already nearly-non-existent market.

As said - not just Colchesters. Nor just machine-tools. Nor just gears.
 
I take it the " rod " is what we call a " shaft "

For sure, the OP took the shaft on this one. Of the hardest sort.

No way would I put $7500 into this, especially with a very good chance of more potential issues. But I'm cheap.

A few thoughts:

-- Part it out and sell it on ebay and elsewhere. It will take time but you'll probably do okay - depending on condition and other wear. Maybe even come out ahead, not counting your time. Though you'll be constantly reminded of it, which could get old quick.

-- Sell it as is, damage noted.

-- Figure out what ratios can work and clean it out and run it on a vfd. Maybe you'll even have more than one gear available. It would improve resale value. If I had bought one of these machines in good condition, the first thing I would do is put a good vfd on it to avoid changing gears.

-- Find a toppled donor machine. But do check the thing out before buying. I have seen sellers bust knobs or levers on machines to hide serious internal issues. They try and get buyers to believe it just needs a simple repair.

-- Repair it. I think this is only viable if your machine is otherwise a really spectacular example, with minimal spindle and bed wear confirmed. You haven't described it, so we don't know.

The manual page the OP posted lacks the hand written note in my version. It says the bushings inside those gears are #311-1562 and three are required. I think I'm looking at the same manual and model but can't be sure. There are also warnings about not scratching the shaft with the circlips, under penalty of serious grief.

Has the OP passed a magnet through the box to see how much metal has been going through the gears? Is there an oil filter? Is it likely the pump delivered contaminated oil to the bearings? Is the oil pump trashed?

I ultimately passed on two of these lathes, 13x40, at auction from a vocational school. Before bidding I checked ebay for parts (crazy prices confirmed) and contacted Clausing in Kalamazoo to check on availability and cost. The machines had minimal wear but after careful inspection I thought one had a feed problem. They sold for $1750 and $2200, with no one else doing any inspection beyond wiggling knobs. Nice machines, with a compact footprint. Just did not need it.

It would be interesting to see more photos of the machine as sold, in regard to general condition. I'd like to hear the story of the specific auction, and auctioneer, where this trashed machine was sold.
 
I have the lathe's baby brother... "Colchester student" as it is branded here. Great little machines... I had once change gear for screw cutting die on me and just turned the blank up and sent it out for gear cutting.
The parts are generally readily available here, I think I have quite a few of the gearbox gears lying in my cupboard labelled "Colchester spares" that came from donor machines.

I say keep it and try to keep your ears and eyes open for donor machines and take as many spare parts as you can afford even if you don't need them now. Another option is turn blanks up and send them to a gear cutting company, obviously getting a quote first. If what I see with what folks have said about prices in this thread then I cannot see why the gears are so pricey. You should be able to get them made up for cheaper.

On a side note one is good condition over here would go for around $3000-$3400 if I convert it.
 
Thanks everyone! Yeah i was thinking about my options. What i am going to do is take all the gears out of the head and make sure nothing else is damaged. It looks pretty straight forward. Depending if i have more damage or if i only have those 2 gears i can see what is the best route for me to go. What i am thinking about leaning towards is buying a smaller used lathe and getting setup to make my own gears. Might be useful having a smaller lathe anyways and hopefully i can get all this for the amount of the shaft and 2 gears if i were to buy them. I have been watching videos on how the dividing head works and it looks simple. If i were just to try and sell it i doubt i could get close to what i paid for it. The rest of the machine seems to be in good working condition just need a good cleaning. Obliviously i haven't been able to really test the machine though.

regarding dividing heads. are they all the same (imports and non). Can i get good results with a cheaper one or do i need to look for a good Harding or similar? Thanks
 
Hardinge dividing head is not necessary. Comparable brands are Vertex, Pratt etc. Just don’t buy a Shar’s or something equally cheap.

Before doing that I would get gear cutting quotes based on making the blanks yourself.
 








 
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