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Using the right shop!

Mebfab

Diamond
Joined
Jun 7, 2003
Location
Mebane North Carolina USA
Honest question.

When a customer (actually potential) says "we use the right shop for the right job" what they actually mean is "we scoure the earth for the cheapest source and then dont pay"? Does this sound correct?

I just had this again the other day. Did a little checking around and they get quotes from every shop they can find from Raleigh to Greensboro. They dont seem to buy very often either. On top of that the machines they build are custom. 95% or more of the parts are one of a kind and not repeated ever. Yet "please quote 1, 5, 25 rush and standard delivery, materials and labor broken out"
 
you summed it up about right.

When I first opened my shop, I quoted some work for a place in Tenn. Same deal: 100, 500, 1000 pcs. Call me about a week after the quote was sent, "we want 20 at the 1000 piece price, we dont usually ask this but Please rush!" "OK" says I, the scared-to-death new business owner says. Boy, they had a new ##tch, lucky for me i might be a little slow on the uptake but I do eventually get there.

Another small local shop has been trying the something similiar. Sent me job after job to quote, but there was always something completely unreasonable about the job, ususally delivery. I am pretty sure they were just using my quotes for there purposes, they didnt seem to really want me doing the work. Wasted alot of my time. Now they call about every 3 months with something else, I need to think up a way to waste some of their time..... i am open to suggestions.
 
......I need to think up a way to waste some of their time..... i am open to suggestions.
1st time it happens: Make 'em hold....don't ever pick back up:D

Next time: Bid outrageously high....who knows y'might just get it!:willy_nilly:

Then, and this will probably be the last: make 'em hold a few minutes..a couple of times pick up, say "y'there?" then "O.k. hold on" bid really high, and then when they don't award you the bid, tell them they need to quit wasting your time!!:angry:

bluechipper
 
Materials and labor broken out is the clue to that game.

Nothing like losing a job because your materials price is .01 cents per pound more expensive...

Those are the kinds of customers I like to fire. :)

That said, I'm willing to work with a new company who is trying to get started out. However, if you want my help you're going to have to be honest with me. Pull all the usual crap and I won't pay any attention.

Delivered yesterday, on spec, on price. Pick any two. ;)
 
This is a classic example of why in any business you need to network. If you have a bad experience with a customer it's nice to give others in your business a heads up. Some will network others will think competition is better. Guess which group will come out ahead?
 
How about setting a policy that the first bid/quote is free, but subsequent bids/quotes will be done for $X, which may be applied to the order resulting from that quote?
 
bidding

My experience comes from 30 years of running a commercial / advertising photography business. Advertising agencies can be real snakes.

Some times the person who is going to do the work is all ready chosen but company policy says they have to get three bids.

I think it is better to network to keep people from being hurt. If one among you is a dog eat dog competitor and bad mouths the rest of the shops, that one doesn't need to be given a heads up. He can get the jobs that pay .99 for every $1.00 in time and materials expended.

I would not do things intentionally to piss off a potential client. One never knows when you might need to work for them.

The repeated requests for a quote with no work forthcoming can be dealt with by telling them politely that it costs us money to prepare a quote and we have never gotten business from you, and either charge for a quote to be applied to the work, or refuse to quote.

If you know they are snakes, hard to work with, and don't pay, your shop can be really busy, or your --- is needing rebuilding.

If you quote really high and get the job, and they don't pay, have to sue, etc. your time would have been better spent sweeping the floor or washing the truck.

One damn fools opinion.

Paul
 
They dont seem to buy very often either. On top of that the machines they build are custom. 95% or more of the parts are one of a kind and not repeated ever. Yet "please quote 1, 5, 25 rush and standard delivery, materials and labor broken out"

This sound like my employer. Sometimes their wants are bigger than their wallet. I hate asking for bis when I know I'm just wasting someone's time. Maybe a surcharge would keep my boss from wasting my time wasting someone else's time.
 
Place I used to work at did send certain parts to the same shops most time as we knew they did it well every time and were set up for it. But there was also many times when they wanted 3-4quotes while knowing already who was going to do the work anyway. The idea was usually " maybe someone else will be starving more this time and we'll get lucky " Sometimes it worked, sometimes it turned to Sh*t. I guess thats how it goes.

I now do my quoting a lot faster as I've started to get used to the rough idea of how long various things take me. Sometimes it's the material that is a pain to find, but if I sense right away that It'll be a waste of time I pass before going any further. If theres a high material cost with very little to be made on machining I also pass as I have no intention to carry that cost for 2months hoping to get paid. Some work isn't worth doing. Seems that more and more companies are tight on cash, better watch out.

Oh, nearly 2 months ago I was asked by a new customer to make some special "thing", only 2 places make them, I'm one of them, other charges more $ for even higher quantities. Made the rush parts within a week, we're currently on week 7 waiting for $$. Being only a few hundred$ I'm letting it drag on to see how long it'll take. Next time I set the rules accordingly, as I know they'll be needed again. :D
 
Also, some places like to constantly jump to the "new shop in town". Since new shops often are starving/desperate for work, they see what they can get them down to... Sometimes they're the same place that sent you work when you were starting out hahaha. :D
 
Don't give quotes to everybody

This is an excellent post !
You have something that they want.
Price information.
Don't give it to them for nothing.
They probablly won't pay for a quote as a matter of principle, but if you hint that only "preferred" customers get free quotes but you might let it slide if they can help you out.
By this, I mean try to get some information from them about how much they actually paid for previous parts or who they used to make them.
They will lie. Ask to see invoices and then maybe you can do better. They will hate you, but their "cheap fuxs" genetics might actually get them to divulge the info. Then got to their supplier and tell him he's whoring himself out.
Lead THEM on. They are trying to lead YOU on.
Talk with the other shops and come to an agreement on what to charge these people and agree with the others not to give out prices so easily.
In my business I have about 3 competitors. Traditionaly we all have posted our prices for popular services on the web and print. Last year I upped my prices significantly and stopped publishing them. It drives the bottom fishers absoutely INSANE. I spend more time answering inquiries for price but I will no longer give quotes to people who I deem to be price shopping. They must listen to my sales pitch about quality and delivery while I slow down their greedy little price search.
I will only quote if I determine that they have an true immediate need and I have a good chance at getting the job. I come right out and ask what kind of quality and delivery requirements they have. I ask them about their expectations about prices. If they start reciting the published inernet pices and I get a hint that they are trying to beat them...Strike Three... no quote.

SM
 
"please quote 1, 5, 25 rush and standard delivery, materials and labor broken out"


I don't quote mat/labor. I quote the part complete as drawn.

It doesn't matter what I pay for materials.

Even if asked like this I will quote as whole.


Now - with that said - I may offer a cheaper option.

A) Possibly 12L instead of 1018 if the application will allow it?
B) Maybe HR instead of CF?
C) etc....

----------------------

Materials only!
Ox
 
Ox has it right. I don't break down my quotes. The price is the price. You like...you buy. If I quote for a company and don't get work by the third time I send back an email the fourth time that says something like, " Thanks for the opportunity to quote your work. As I am currently at max capacity for the next 6 weeks, I will have to no-quote this job."

I had one company that asked me to quote anyways just to get an idea where I'd be price-wise. I declined....let 'em quote their own jobs.;)
 
Nothing is worse than being the free sales department for a company. They come to you, get a ball park, they quote it, get the job and then go shopping for the cheapest price.

I've treated this syndrome several ways, quote it really high so they don't get the job(I wasn't going to get it anyways) and when its stuff I can't or won't do, and when they ask for a ball park, low ball it off the map so they lose their ass. Told them if I had the equipment, $1000 on one part that cost $2500 just to get a 3D model of. Woops. Stopped that pretty quick.
 
I don't see anything wrong with them doing that; it's called smart shopping. The other side of the coin is that you, as a vendor, need to discipline yourself to cut them off when you have determined they are a time-waster.

As economist would revel in your situation, noting that it is nothing more than the free market, and capitalism, at work. He'd also tell you to be damn glad it is that way - you could have someone from the government telling you what your price would be and whether or not you'd be doing the work, comrade.
 
Cool.

Nothing is worse than being the free sales department for a company. They come to you, get a ball park, they quote it, get the job and then go shopping for the cheapest price.

I've treated this syndrome several ways, quote it really high so they don't get the job(I wasn't going to get it anyways) and when its stuff I can't or won't do, and when they ask for a ball park, low ball it off the map so they lose their ass. Told them if I had the equipment, $1000 on one part that cost $2500 just to get a 3D model of. Woops. Stopped that pretty quick.

Snappy idea, nothing ticks me off more then getting my own sketch back with someone else wanting a lower quote on it.
 
Place I used to work at did send certain parts to the same shops most time as we knew they did it well every time and were set up for it. But there was also many times when they wanted 3-4quotes while knowing already who was going to do the work anyway. The idea was usually " maybe someone else will be starving more this time and we'll get lucky " Sometimes it worked, sometimes it turned to Sh*t. I guess thats how it goes.

I now do my quoting a lot faster as I've started to get used to the rough idea of how long various things take me. Sometimes it's the material that is a pain to find, but if I sense right away that It'll be a waste of time I pass before going any further. If theres a high material cost with very little to be made on machining I also pass as I have no intention to carry that cost for 2months hoping to get paid. Some work isn't worth doing. Seems that more and more companies are tight on cash, better watch out.

Oh, nearly 2 months ago I was asked by a new customer to make some special "thing", only 2 places make them, I'm one of them, other charges more $ for even higher quantities. Made the rush parts within a week, we're currently on week 7 waiting for $$. Being only a few hundred$ I'm letting it drag on to see how long it'll take. Next time I set the rules accordingly, as I know they'll be needed again. :D

WHY do machine shops ship the finished product to the customer and HOPE they will be paid?

With so many large corporations playing accounting games with their suppliers, why would a small shop even consider shipping the product--any product to anybody for that matter--without recieving payment first? :nutter:

I am not a shop owner, but I work at a large corporation as a machinist. I see the games that are played in order to make the accounting department look good. They will even bankrupt small shops because the shop now has to sue the large corp for the money. Large corp will have their lawyers delay hearings over and over--hopefully killing the small shop in the process.
 
Philabuster, I think we take it, because so many other shops have been doing it so long, if we don't they'll go somewhere else? Many believe its our duty to just make the parts and expect nothing in return, its not an appreciated service, and its the business with the highest overhead vs the lowest rate. Now someone unplugging a toilet for $150, thats appreciated apparently... But thats how it is, and with new shops constantly popping up all over the place starving, its only getting worse.

When its a company/customer which is supposed to be established, even if its the first time doing something for them and well knowing the cash may never come, I think most shops will take the 30days(which usually turns into more days) and hope it does turn out good. Note that I don't bargain any more then I'm willing to lose(or willing to collect one way or another...). If it was just 1 person coming from the street with a crazy story and no way to find them afterwards, it would be cash before parts. Funny thing is these parts got paid today, a bit late, but not as late as some others have been so overall I feel good. odd eh? Pretty weird business to be into thats for sure. And yet I pay all my vendors right away, cash or Visa and I often get better service for it. I have 1 customer who pays fast and never had a problem and I gladly try to put his work ahead of anyone else's and even give him a better rate(it is easier work too). So far I've been lucky that everyone has always paid at some point. I'm sure many on this board, and a few others I know in person lost a lot of $ before to various crooks.
Thats just how I view it of course. Some days it does seem like working for another shop was easy, pay was there... but this is more fun :D

Time to get back to work now :D
 
Hy,
I´m on the other side of the fence. We´re a small company with a wide variety of milled, drilled, cast and turned parts needed for the product. Therefore, we go shopping around. We bargain hard but once set, we have the parts and 28 days later you´ll have the money, usually even faster if you give us 3-5% on the price in the first two weeks...
I narrowed myself to having 3-4 companys bid for a part or only two if I know the others can´t compete anyhow. Why burn the manhours of bidding for a contract worth 500 bucks in more than a few shops? Even if this is not my time, I´ll have to pay it next time you´ll do something for me.
I know each of my suppliers by handshake, dropped out the ones who tried to cheat me and I´m ever happy since. My closest supplier will do rush parts on demand without a quote and he never tried to fool me afterwards. He does em on Saturday or Sunday and I´ll pick them up on Monday morning to get them to galvanizing in a rush. He knows I honor his work and the speed it´s done, he honors me paying superfast and taking responsibility for my prints. I won´t press him for parts if it is not an emercency, he won´t try to cheat me on part count or material. I had to come over to a shop to ok shortcuts in production or problems/changes with the part geometry/neccessary tools more than once. Usually now, this ends with a chat and a beer. In the beginning, this was hard, because they thought I want to tell them how to do their work.
I had differencies in the beginning concerning surfaces, scratches, dimensions, parts count and a few other minor issues since everybody in the shop was allowed to order and nobody checked the incoming parts. They were sometimes partially crappy and not to spec or the paperwork was missing, no invoice and 3 weeks later they yelled at me "where is my money?" Since we installed quality control, live is far easier, both for me and my suppliers. We don´t take parts without paperwork, we sign our prints and our changes with date and name and we try to do what we would expect from our supplier.
I got most of my suppliers down to 1-2 weeks from order to parts. It was 4-6 weeks in the beginning. It was hard to move their weary a**es in the beginning, but as soon as they discovered that the money is there shortly after the parts are out the door, they picked up the pace (I had to emphasize this more than once, but great things bear repetition). It´s cool if you walk into the office of a supplier on friday and they say " today, you´re pretty late, lets see what you need next week." They know I´m coming, so they reserve a timeslot for me.

In my old line of work, it was usual to ask for a bid from a company if you had no idea how to manufacture a part, paying targets were sloppy at least and in case someone inhouse fu***ed up a print, they tried to shift the responsibility to the manufacturer. I more than once saw rush jobs rot on a skid because the guy who ordered them was on vacation when they arrived. It was a large company but luckily, I left this behind me.

Now, we´re ten people in our department. We play hard but fair. We try to be as predicteable as possible for our suppliers and we only rush parts when it is really necessary. We have the parts, you have the money. I´ve seen other companies jobs getting put on the rack because my parts were on the list, more than once. Both my suppliers and I like the way how it´s done.

What I wanted to say with all this dallying is: There are always two, one who does and one who accepts. If you´re a sloppy supplier, I´ll kick you off my list after a few tries. If I´m a bad customer, same thing for me, feel free to kick me from yours.

Greetings,
Johann
 
Hy,
We bargain hard but once set, we have the parts and 28 days later you´ll have the money, usually even faster if you give us 3-5% on the price in the first two weeks...
Sounds like you have a good relationship with your suppliers.
My best customers are the most demanding, but they pay reliably and pay for rush service.
Good relationships mean good money for both sides.

SM
 








 
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